Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@oneflew, yes. Make it a part-year one — only include accounts held up to when you renounced, and only the maximum values during the period before renouncing. Write something to that effect on the top of it. If you cannot find any IRS guidance on renunciation (part-)year FBARs it is because they have never bothered to issue any.
@oneflew, I didn’t file FBAR after renouncing since nothing states that non-Americans must file FBARS. All FBAR documentation applies only to American citizens. However, tax professionals generally seem to recommend that one files FBAR for the time that one was an American.
@Watcher, if the IRS never mentioned part-year FBAR why should we assume that the answer is yes?
After you’re not a US citizen any more, what right do they have to that information?
(re tax return that’s a different story as they do insist that you file part year …)
@oneflew
I did the same as Watcher suggests, with the exception that I didn’t include a statement that it was only for a partial year. Let sleeping dogs lie.
@WhatAmi
Thanks for posting the link to that Moody’s announcement. This statement from it struck me as being particularly strong. I wonder what Mr. Stack would have to say about this.
“Next year the US’s Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) will go into effect, and at that time it will become increasingly difficult to renounce US citizenship for the “right reasons” and thereby avoiding potentially ruinous consequences. All evidence suggests that now is the time to consider renouncing US citizenship, if at all.”
@shunrata, it is disgusting (but predictable) that the IRS has never clarified this. I went through this a few years ago, and a ‘part-year FBAR’ with something to that effect scribbled on top is what the IRS told me to do when I asked them. If it only covers accounts held and peak values up to the date of renouncing then you are giving them nothing for the period when you were no longer a US citizen. (And as for the ‘right’ to this information, it is arguable whether the US has that even when you are a citizen, but that’s a different topic…)
@notamused,
I went to this same seminar a few weeks ago. Moodys mostly attracts high net-worth clients. The statement you quoted quite directly refers to the problem of being a covered expat and the fact that they have no doubt that the Reed-Schumer ammendment will pass. For non-covered expats, they didn’t say that waiting until next year is problematic. They said they can help otherwise covered expats get under the 8854 tests to pass as non-covered expats.
@WhatAmI I am concerned more with whether or not I meet the FBAR limit 🙂
There are situations where it’s easier not to be well to do.
Thanks everyone for the answers to my question on the Fbar for the year of renunciation. I renounced 2013 and almost got started on the 8854 due to unclear information from the IRS as well as many places on the web. Finally figured I could file it with my 2013 return in 2014. I guess my accounts etc are beyond IRS purview as of my date of renunciation. However I still see a lot of confusing info including that from some professionals on the web (can’t remember specific sites) that creates the impression that until the 8854 is filed, the IRS continues to be interested in all your accounts and it may be best to start making changes only after the 8854 is filed. It has been practically impossible to get detailed info from the IRS on some of these issues.
oneflew the IRS will only continue to be interested if you are wealthy. Like CRA they have had their budget cut and are mired in scandal. (CRA issued $380,000. refund to Montreal mobster who owed them $1.5 million at the time.).
Looking for advice…does anyone have any insight or thoughts to the advantages or disadvantages of my sister and I booking our relinquishing appointments together or separately? We will be emailing the Calgary US consulate this week for relinquishing appointments and would like to attend together, we live in different provinces and thought we could provide support for each other in Calgary. We realize we will have individual interviews. The information we will be bringing (our preponderance of evidence) includes much of the same documents and information as we have similar history. Has anyone booked a family appointment, or any reason why this may not be a good idea? Should we make appointments with a significant amount of time between them instead? Thank you. Geri.
Geri,
My husband and I renounced at the US Consulate in Calgary; our appointments were scheduled the same day, one after the other and separate from each other. I am almost sure that there would be no problem with them doing the same for you and your sister. Calgary has proven to be show renunciants and relinquishers one the most efficient, respectful experiences reported here.
@Geri
While what calgary411 says is fine for renunciations, I would answer differently in the case of relinquishing, which is what you have said you’re doing.
There are cases of back-dated relinquishment that are quite straight-forward and almost a sure thing. It would help if you state your history for us.
I live in Calgary but my sister is in another province. I’ve requested my appointment for early January (December is full) and received an email response that they would let me know my date and time after Oct 1.
Even though I feel I have a sure-thing argument for claiming relinquishment dating back 40 years, there is a chance the US may see it differently. My sister’s history is identical to mine, except I visited the US consulate 40 years ago and she didn’t. I lived my life according to what I was told in person, but my sister lived her life according to what I passed on to her from my consular visit.
I’m doing my appointment before hers (at least a day, but it could be a week or more) in case my interview is such that we need to re-work the argument for hers. Or, if I am flatly refused, she could cancel her appointment altogether. Depending on your specifics, you may want to do the same.
I urge you to share your history with us (birthplace, parents citizenship at the time, how you obtained Canadian citizenship, when you last filed taxes and renewed a US passport, what is the basis for you back-dated relinquishment claim, etc). There may somebody with the same details who has gone before you. Maybe even me…
I have a work-in-progress letter I’m writing for my January interview for a back-dated CLN. The introduction states that I’m applying for a back-dated CLN because I’ve heard that Canadians with a US birthplace on their Canadian passports (like me) are having a hard time crossing the border into the US.
I thought it a good idea not to mention anything resembling issues with US taxes.
Now it occurs to me that this reads poorly. I can see getting the response, “Say what, boy? You want to give up your US citizenship to make it easier to enter the US???”
Also, it conflicts somewhat with all the details I have laid out showing that I’ve had no connection (or desire for connection) to the US since I left as a child 47 years ago.
So now I’m thinking a better statement is that I’ve read that Canadians have to prove to their banks that they are not US citizens or their bank accounts will be closed. (It doesn’t matter if many Brokers don’t believe this will happen here as it has in Europe. It’s a good reason to have a CLN if you can get one safely.)
Thoughts anyone?
Much better reply to Geri, WhatAmI.
Thank you calgary411 and WhatAmI. I had posted my situation in this discussion group on August 16 with more details.
WhatAmI your approach to schedule the appointments with time between may have merit. I would certainly want to assist my sister with her responses if I gained information from my own meeting. You have given us something to discuss. Kind regards, Geri
@Geri
Ah yes, with the date I was able to find your post easily. I remember it. Great that somebody with a similar history to @Benedict is here. You’re quite a bit younger than @Benedict though. There were major changes to the INA in 1978 (before you became a Canadian citizen) so you could have a harder time than he’s having. I was born dual, so I’m somewhat under a different set of rules.
What AmI. There is no need to give a reason. Just say you relinquished in ….. And ask for an appropriately dated CLN
@KalC
Good point. I could just remove the opening paragraph altogether.
@tdott I moved from responding on the FATCA Fact Sheet thread to here, as this seems a better place to discuss.
Thank you for providing your details – that is very helpful. My usual way of functioning is to clear things up and move on. As you describe, I have been waffling and deciding and re-deciding how to approach this. If I decide to get compliant, as you have done, do you have recommendations about how to do this, with respect to specific help for filing in the US? I have seen little in my travels here on IBS and elsewhere on the interwebz about reputable persons who can help Canadians with dual citizenship file in the US so as to be truly free, once renunciation occurs. I think it was you who suggested just starting by looking at the 2012 1040 and associated forms but I have to say I got a bit intimidated looking at those things.
@WhatAmI can you clarify what you mean as “born dual”? If I read your past posts correctly, you were born in the US to Canadian parents and returned to Canada as a child, and at one point informed by the US consulate that dual citizenship did not exist. I only ask as my situation is similar and I do not refer to myself as born dual. Is “born dual” a recognized term? I believe terminology and choice of words is paramount to one’s argument and as I am unfamiliar with the phrase “born dual” I just want to make sure I haven’t missed anything in my research and my reasoning. Thanks so much. Geri
@Geri, it simply means that one has been a citizen of both nations since birth. This applies to any Canadian who was born in America and has not yet renounced US citizenship.
Thanks SwissPinoy, that was a quick response. My Canadian mother did not file a Birth Abroad certificate when I was born in the US, would that have been required to be considered a Canadian at birth? I was informed by an immigration lawyer that being born to a Canadian parent was not enough to be considered Canadian at birth in 1966.
@Geri
There’s more to it…
Both my parents were Canadian (only). I was born in the US in 1954. That made me a Canadian at birth, but also a USC at birth since I was born in the US. I read that at the time, the parents had to register for a Birth Abroad by age two (I think), but my mother did not register us. My sister and I got Birth Abroad certificates when we moved back to Canada in 1966.
However, at the time, having only a Canadian mother did not get you Canadian citizenship. Your father had to be Canadian (even if your mother was not!). It sounds like your immigration lawyer didn’t explain that to you? I was OK since both my parents were Canadian. @Benedict’s mother was Canadian, so he had to naturalize in Canada to get his citizenship. Like you, this was done when he was under 18 years of age.
I’m not sure when our laws changed such that having a Canadian mother was good enough to get Canadian citizenship born abroad, but in 2004 (2006? 2009?) Canada retroactively gave citizenship since birth to people who had only a Canadian mother. The same bill gave and/or reinstated Canadian citizenship for a list of other reasons as well if I remember correctly.
Unlike US citizenship, there is no harm in retroactively being made a Canadian citizen.
Geri, it sounds like just your mother was Canadian? If so, like @Benedict, you were not a Canadian at birth, but as I said, with the law changes in 200x you could claim it now. No point however, since you naturalized when you were a child.
What Benedict and I have in common is that we were told by US consulates in the 1970s that were were not US citizens and have lived our lives accordingly.
The US law changes in October 1978 were such that one wouldn’t loose their US citizenship so easily (for example, by voting in a foreign election). Since you naturalized after 1978, you are covered by the new rules. The new rules also changed the wording regarding minors.
I don’t think you’ve posted here the basis of your claim to have relinquished years ago?
DM56 – Glad to see you finding help in clarifying, and to see others coming forward with useful perspective. That was the intent. I know someone in your circumstance. There are principles and there are pragmatics. The world’s best advisor says to count the cost. Bon voyage in your trek toward optimizing a personal strategy. Few persons are able to pull out a cookie cutter to slice through this snarl. The thing that makes it all so difficult and so complex and so obsessive. Sauve qui peut.