Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
My husband goes for his Canadian citizenship ceremony next week. Does anyone know if it’s possible to get the presiding official to sign a self-made statement that he is taking allegiance to Canada with intent to give up his American citizenship?
I was thinking something along the lines of: On this date [….] in the city of […] I have affirmed my allegiance to Canada with the intent of relinquishing my citizenship of the United States of America. (Signed by my husband and the judge or whoever administers the oath.)
Can anyone help me out with the wording? Has anyone else done something like this? We’d really like something in writing. Would that stop the tax filing clock at the date of the citizenship ceremony or would it still keep ticking until the date at the US consulate? I don’t think my husband would mind simply going the straight renunciation route either; perhaps taking a perverse pleasure in saying, in effect, “I reject thee, country of a thousand cuts to the sense of justice. Out, out damn blot on privacy and freedom.” (Not my husband’s words — just me spouting off again.)
@Em,
I might suggest if one was to make a statement like that regarding relinquishment, it might be better to say something like: “On this date [….] in the city of […] I have affirmed my allegiance to Canada and in doing so, it is also my intention to relinquish my citizenship of the United States of America to avoid and conflict in allegiances.” (Signed by my husband and the judge or whoever administers the oath.)
The slight variation is because your proposed wording gave me the impression that the reason for becoming a Canadian was to relinquish. The wording I suggest kind of suggests that it was a secondary thing and that the US citizenship is secondary to Canadian.
Just a thought.
@Em
this was the wording in Canadian Oath PRE-1973
Declaration of Renunciation (was taken at the same time as oath from January 1, 1947 to April 2, 1973)
I hereby renounce all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign sovereign or state of whom or which I may at this time be a subject or citizen.
You could replace (any foreign sovereign or state…)
@Em, ‘out, out damn blot …’ makes this sound like an exorcism. Which in a way I guess it is…
Great that your husband’s citizenship is next week.
According to the current law, the tax clock will stop for your husband the day he goes to the consulate. So, if he can get an appt by the end of the year, at least 2013 will be his last year.
877A(g)(4) Relinquishment of citizenship
A citizen shall be treated as relinquishing his United States citizenship on the earliest of—
(A) the date the individual renounces his United States nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States pursuant to paragraph (5) of section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481 (a)(5)),
(B) the date the individual furnishes to the United States Department of State a signed statement of voluntary relinquishment of United States nationality confirming the performance of an act of expatriation specified in paragraph (1), (2), (3), or (4) of section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481 (a)(1)–(4)),
(C) the date the United States Department of State issues to the individual a certificate of loss of nationality, or
(D) the date a court of the United States cancels a naturalized citizen’s certificate of naturalization.
@ Only a Canadian
Thank you. You are right. That’s why I asked for help with the wording. There isn’t even an ounce of lawyer in me.
Thank you Benedict, Watcher, Pacifica too. We are both excited about attending the ceremony. I think someone said here that the Calgary consulate isn’t booking until January now. Guess that means filing for 2014 too. We just want this all to end! Neither of us feels we could tackle 1040s, etc. when the FATCA induced dementia hits us full force.
@Em.
Just curious, are you going stream-lined or just catching up on the 5 years?
@ WhiteKat
My husband has always filed 1040s and FBARs so there isn’t any catching up to do. He just wants to be able to get off the filing train. He’s had enough of the IRS but of course that will not be his reason for renouncing, right? 😉
Em, what about you? Is your only ‘US indicia’, your spouse?
@ WhiteKat
Sadly no. Had a green card, sent it to the USCIS (attached to an I-407 form) and they ignored it. That sort of put me in limbo so I did a DIY freedom bid. I file nothing now (except Canadian taxes, of course). I have also permanently banned myself from entering the USA. They should be happy that I will never darken their doorstep again. I haven’t been there in over 15 years so it’s no big deal to me. Perhaps I put too much faith in the (in)famous Flaherty promise but you do the best you can with what information you have at any given time. I’m happy to add my little buzz to the mosquito squad swarm. I do it for my husband (he is doing his thing on other forums) and I do it to keep my anger at a manageable level.
Hi Guys,
I am meeting with my consulate in 1 week. I have told them I have a form(s) that need to be witnessed by a consular officer. I am intending to relinquish and so far I have form ds-4079 that I am filling out. Is this the only form I need to bring? Once they witness it, is this something I then send in to the state department myself? The NZ embassy here is not going to like me attempting a relinquishment, they keep telling me I must renounce and bring $450 etc. I’m trying to ignore this, have them witness the ds-4079 (which I believe is well within my rights), then I need to get this form into the right hands. One question about the form, for example question 6 on page 1 asks “When did you first become aware that you might be a US citizen?” a couple of these questions do not apply to me so I’m assuming it’s ok to leave them blank? Or technically do I need to state N/A ? I’ll be soaking up your advice and asking questions over the next few days. I am a bit anxious over this whole process, I just want to get it over with to say the least. I performed my relinquishing act in 2008 and can show I had no intent to remain a citizen at that point, so hopefully I can get my CLN dated 2008? Anyway, thanks for any hand holding here!
pukeonz,
The State Department won’t accept the DS-4079 form if you mail it yourself directly to Washington. Their procedure requires a consular or embassy official to issue and sign a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) for you, after which the CLN is sent by the consulate/embassy to Washington for approval. Your DS-4079 is only the first step in that process. You will have to try to persuade the official at the embassy, based on the “preponderance of evidence”, that you relinquished your US citizenship in 2008. If they won’t accept your position on that, then I don’t think you have much choice other than paying the US$450 and renouncing.
@Em, congratulations on your spouse’s upcoming ceremony. Hope he can get an apt to relinquish in 2013 and so conclude this earlier rather than endure another year.
From having witnessed the citizenship ceremony, I’d say it would be unlikely that there would be an opportunity to get your statement witnessed and signed right then. The proceedings are highly scripted and they are often done in batches of 50 – with the family and friends present, some of whom want pictures with the citizenship judge. And I’m not sure if the judge would agree to sign something in their official capacity that they haven’t had time to read and consider – because they’d be signing in the context of their official role. The paperwork they give out (Citizenship certificate) attests to your oath and the date, but, not sure how they could sign to attest to your ‘intent’?
Wonder what would happen if you gave a written statement to that effect and had it witnessed by a non-relative and then notarized?
@ badger
I think we’ll give it a try anyway — no harm in that. If the official says no then so be it. Only a Canadian had a good suggestion for the wording of my husband’s “intent” statement.
Latest controversy over Canadian oath…
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/oath-to-queen-for-new-canadians-is-constitutional-court-rules-1.1463349
@pukekonz
To the very best of my knowledge, AnonAnon is absolutely spot on about the consulate having to submit your relinquishment to the State Department. Here in Melbourne we showed up with all of our paperwork already filled out. The consulate here would not accept that. They gave us their own (identical) copies of the forms and required us to fill those out then post them back to them. Those guys make the rules we have to follow. We cannot get a CLN doing this stuff on our own, trying to bypass the embassy/consulate, it is not how the government’s expatriation process is set up to work.
All the same, the consulate was brilliantly helpful and friendly about answering questions. I was not totally sure what to reply to question 6 which you mentioned. We were born in the US. Their reply was to answer “always knew that” to this question. As I recall we were not supposed to leave lots of things blank generally; if the paperwork is not filled out absolutely correctly from A to Z then the State Department is simply going to reject it straightaway. The consulate ensures that everything they send to the US is filled out in the proper expected fashion before proceeding. They also required copies of our birth certificates, citizenship certificates, US passports and Aussie passports to send along with the forms we filled out.
Are you using the US embassy in Wellington? If they’re treating you in a dodgy fashion it’s good to let other people on this site know that, so they’re aware to avoid that diplomatic post. Presumably you have some sort of evidence you can offer them showing you do meet the qualifications for relinquishing; the State Department will need to see that in order to approve a relinquishment. Did the consulate give you any reason they wanted you to renounce instead? Or were they just being ratbags about the whole thing. You certainly have every right to relinquish instead of renounce if you have the proper documentation to back that up and haven’t broken any of the rules.
The consulate/embassy is the critical factor in getting your loss of citizenship approved. Once they sign off on it and send the case to the US, it basically gets rubber stamped by the State Department. But they’re the ones who have to send the paperwork over there; this isn’t something private individuals are empowered to do. You’re stuck having to work with them and getting their cooperation, one way or another. If you are not getting treated fairly, you have the right to use a different diplomatic post. It appears that in Canada many people have a horrible time with Vancouver’s consulate, so they choose to go to Calgary instead for instance.
Heaps of people on this site are far, far more knowledgeable about all of this than I am. I’ve only stuck my humble two cents in because I noticed you weren’t getting a lot of answers thus far. If I have been mistaken at all about any detail, others here will jump on it and offer corrections. Best of luck with your meeting at the embassy; hope they will sort everything out for you tolerably.
@pukekonz
I haven’t yet had my meeting with the consulate, but from all I’ve read here I doubt that going in to have the document witnessed is going to work. I’ve dealt with then on other matters and if you don’t play by their rules they will just ignore you.
What was your relinquishing act and why won’t they accept it?
Good luck @Em, as you say, they can only say no, so no harm in trying – worth the try. There is a part before the ceremony where you see an Immigration official and give up your PR card and answer a few questions. This is before you go in to the main ceremony chamber. Maybe at the end of that, but before the oath you’d be able to ask about getting the paper signed so they’d know to expect it? Or maybe at the end when things conclude.
@ badger
My husband will be very happy to turn in his PR card. What a pain that was to apply for, although the renewals aren’t too bad. I sure appreciate the advice I’ve been getting re: the citizenship ceremony and all. I’m going to be such a pain to everyone when my husband gets into the renunciation part and the thereafter. I read hours and hours here a day but I still have no confidence that I’ve got all the steps and forms straight in my head. And now I have so many documents, PDFs and URLs saved that it will be a huge challenge to find what I want when I need it. Wish I had your retention and organization skills.
@Em, I’m not reallly that organized, and I too get the information confused even though some I’ve read over and over and saved and bookmarked. Immersion mostly. But not really indexed, so I rediscover useful stuff by accident and resolve to use it and then lose it again. IBS has been a source of invaluable information, and support. Healthier to find a way to make a contribution back, and divert anger and distress into something useful and constructive. A more informed and annoying mosquito.
People here have been so helpful about the renouncing and relinquishing forms and process. I’m sure they will not mind answering questions again. It is sometimes hard to find information because by now there are so many posts. But the end to this chapter is close for your husband, you are that much closer.
Hang in there.
HELP URGENTLY NEEDED ON FILLING RENUNCIATION DOCS!
@All,
I have my appointment with the MTL consulate early this week & am confused about
how to fill out some of the docs. I booked an online appointment for notarial & other
services. In response to my email about the procedure for renunciation, they sent me
a list of links to 4 docs they said to be filled out in advance, mentioned bringing passports,
citizenship docs, birth certificate and a long blah, blah about tax filling obligations with
links to IRS docs/website. I downloaded the DS-4080, DS-4081, DS-4083, and DS-4079
from the links they sent me and am really confused about why and how to fill in parts of
DS-4079. I am going there to renounce citizenship not to relinquish it. I am a US citizen
by birth & became a Canadian citizen 5 years ago. At the time I hadn’t thought to renounce
my US citizenship and I have used a US passport & filed US tax returns since becoming
Canadian. So why do I need to fill out DS-4079? How do I fill out the following questions:
#6 when did you first become aware you were US citizen – give approximate date?
I was born there but what kind of date can I answer to this???
# 17 describe in detail the circumstances under which you performed the act/s in #8-16?
#18 b Did you perform the acts with intent to relinquish US citizenship? IF so, explain ???
When I took the citizenship oath at the CAD citizenship ceremony I wasn’t intentionally
thinking of relinquishing my US citizenship at that time so how to answer this ???
Part II Statement of voluntary relinquishment of US citizenship – should I fill this part out??
I thought my relinquishing act would be that of going before the US consulate to renounce my
citizenship but am so confused about the rest of this. Also, in reading some comments on this
thread it seems like different consulates in Canada are providing different docs or asking for
different info. Someone here mentioned asking for a social security number – I don’t see any
place on the 4 docs I downloaded that ask for it. Also, someone mentioned on the renunciation
form (whichever one that is) that they ask about if your current address is the same. I also
don’t see anywhere on the 4 docs I have that ask for current address. Can someone please
reply SOON and help clarify.
I’m just afraid of going to the consulate with some forms incomplete or wrongly filled out and
being told to redo them and then come back at a later date. They already require 2 appointments
to complete the process and I don’t want to drag it out to be 3 appointments or have my paperwork
rejected by the State department.
moonstruck. Take a deep breath. Take your time and fill the forms to the best of your ability-that’s all they can expect.
The problem with DS 4079 is that they have bastardized the form and are using it for 2 different purposes. Formerly ,people who performed a relinquishing act would be denied a passport.
Now the procedure is turned on its head and its difficult to lose your citizenship but they stupidly keep the same confusing form.
So… #6 ” I was born American in (place) on (birth date) Birth cert. attached”
#17 I took an oath of allegiance to Canada on (date) in (place)” This answer is of course redundant. You already answered it in question 8.
# 18b no
Part II Leave blank because it refers to previous acts.
4080 This is the big one-the one that counts. Don’t sign it until you are there as it must be signed in front of a vice consul. You don’t need it filled in until your second appointment.
4081 is straightforward. It merely states that you know what you are doing. You do not need a separate statement as to why. You can leave blank until your second appointment.
4083 is for them to fill out not you.
If they want more, they will ask for it. Be calm-we hear that Montreal is very professional.
Bob’s your uncle.
I imagine this is open to anybody…
http://www.moodystax.com/considering-renouncing-your-us-citizenship-now-may-be-the-time-to-get-out/
Sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere earlier and I’ve missed it. My question is – does one have to file an Fbar for the year of expatriation? I mean if the expatriation/renunciation occurs in mid 2013 does one have to file an Fbar in 2014 along with the partial return and 8854 for 2013?