Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@DM56,
It has been quite a long time since the Vancouver consulate has offered appointments for renouncing or relinquishing. Also, they insist on 2 appointments while consulates, such as, Calgary and Toronto do it in one appointment. I used Vancouver to report a long ago expatriation and found them difficult to deal with in may ways. I would definitely suggest using the Calgary consulate. All reports suggest that you are treated with respect and professionalism in Calgary. I understand that you need to email them requesting an appointment and not to use the online booking site.
Good luck.
@Benedict Arnold be me
“still waiting for my CLN since April 10th” – does anyone know the reasons for different lengths of time to receive a CLN? I was told about a month but that has passed. I luckily kept the receipt showing the renunciation fee paid and will be filling out the final tax forms in 2014. What do I do if I still have not received a CLN by then?
@allou
I was told it would take 3-4 weeks. In actuality it took 4 months. I definitely think you’ll get it before it’s time to file for 2013 in 2014 though. Your guess is as good as mine regarding why there are such variations in the timeline.
@DM56,
Calgary is now booking for December or January. If you e-mail them for a renunciation appointment, they’ll reply with instructions and a short renunciation questionnaire (about 10 questions — they’ve been using this questionnaire instead of the four-page DS-4079 for renunciations). I see that Toronto currently has 15 appointments available this month, the first being next Monday, and 131 for October.
@allou
I did an analysis of a report on timing of CLN’s provided by Pacifica777 and concluded in my own way that the CLN’s issued for RENOUNCERs was indeed going faster (now down to 2 months) but the CLN’s for RELINQUISHERs from the pre-80’s seemed to take closer to 6 months with one exception…I believe I posted this to Pacifica777 somewhere earlier…
Also, I have been in touch with the Calgary Consulate by email and the latest comment was on Aug 27th:
“I can appreciate you are anxious to receive your Certificate of Loss of Nationality. Unfortunately, there has been a deluge of such cases worldwide”
So I am now tentatively hoping to receive it by Oct 10…(and since I haven’t had any further queries since the submission, I gather it must be just a processing delay…maybe reduced summer staffing in Wash, DC ?…)
I requested a meeting for January just now.
It makes sense that relinquishments take longer, since the decision is made in D.C. but renunciations seem to be a done deal at your consulate interview.
I wonder if they do some extensive searching for relinquishers to make sure the person hasn’t made any use of American citizenship during the time since their claim of relinquishment. After all, that’s what causes the IRS to try to ignore the CLN date in favour of the notification/interview date.
@all,
My second appointment at the Vancouver Consulate was in early April. I received the CLN in mid June and the stamp was dated within 2 months of my appointment. My CLN was for a long ago (1970s) relinquishment.
I believe it was posted quite some time ago that consulates may send them in batches and the paperwork in DC might also be done in batches. I don’t believe there would be differences between renouncing or relinquishing as I believe that it is the usual case that the consulate makes the decision and then it is ‘rubber stAmped’ in DC.
@Tiger
I stand corrected then…yours would be the 2nd instance (it wasn’t updated on the info sheet I had)…the first one I noticed was in Calgary…(m28.pdf)…I don’t know if pacifica777 has a new sheet available?
@Tiger, @Benedict
Benedict, do I remember correctly that when the Calgary consulate sent your relinquishment to D.C. they told you it was up to D.C. to “approve” it?
Tiger, I didn’t realize Vancouver requires two appointments for decades-old relinquishments. Given that the reason for the second appointment is for a person to have time to reflect upon the seriousness of renouncing, that shouldn’t apply when simply requesting a certificate to prove what you did decades ago.
@ WhatAmI
The Notary said something to the effect that DC had the final approval…and it should take a couple of months…
Unfortunately, I never did catch what the consular rep said, because she was about 8 ft from the window talking through an open door to the notary, and I could barely make out what he was saying…
I do wonder if there was a delay in shipping out the application because of an unsolicited comment offered in an email response: “Although your application for a Certificate of Loss of Nationality was sent in to the Department in a timely fashion, it is our understanding that there is a huge backlog”
When I see those bolded words…it makes me think like a customs officer…too much info offered.. something is wrong 🙂 or am I just paranoid…LOL…just kidding around…
@WhatAmI,
Exactly!!!! That is why I have said for months, if you don’t have to go to Vancouver – DON’T. My first appointment was early fall 2012. As I posted in the Consulate Report Directory, 2 birth certificates were rejected (one because my father’s middle name was blurred), my marriage certificate rejected. After obtaining a new birth certificate and new marriage certificate, I was offered an appointment for October, 2013. Through the intervention of the Senior Consul General for all of Canada, my appointment was moved up to this past April. I have Calgary 411 to thank for that.
So to all who will listen, my advice is travel to Calgary or Toronto. If I were starting this process all over agin, I would not go to the Vancouver Consulate. The stress has contributed to the ruination of.my health. And my case should have been a ‘slam dunk’. My story (both my 1st and 2nd appointments) can be found in the Consulate Report Directory.
@Benedict
You mentioned “too much info offered”. Are you referring to the letter you wrote and submitted against your lawyer’s advice?
I’ve written a letter as well, detailing my history, and even quoting the pre-1978 INA 349 and INA 350 that applied to me at the time. It details what I’ve done as a Canadian (everything in life) and what I have done as an American (absolutely nothing). I have until January to decide how to present my case. It just seems to me that filing in the form with a few half sentenses doesn’t read like as much a preponderance as my letter.
@ WhatAmI
No…I was referring to the email reply that excused the delay, while advocating that they had processed it in a timely manner…usually that is bureaucracy lingo for…oopppss,,, I think it was just mailed out…
@ WhatAmI
I agree…more detail is better as I believe each case is determined on the preponderance of evidence…
I will certainly provide anything I can once I get the CLN and know it was successful…I will also query them directly as to what part of my presentation twigged them to recant…and will report on that as well…hopefully in plenty of time for your appointment…
Pacifica 777. & Calgary 411 Would you be kind enough to send me the Calgary questionnaire if you have a copy? A family member would like to relinquish but it would be iffy using the DS 4079.
Calgary 411 has my email and knows my story. Perhaps she would give my e-mail. to you. Sorry I missed you when Victoria Ferauge was here.
I’ve sent the Calgary questionnaire to you, KalC.
Just want to confirm — is it tiger you want to have your email address? Thanks.
@KalC
When I inquired about available appointment time slots to notify them of my past relinquishment, they sent me 4 documents (I renamed them slightly):
ACS_2 Advice about Possible Loss of USC.docx
ACS_3 RELINQUISH – INFO FOR LOSS CASES.DOC
ACS_3 Renunciation – Renunciation of US Citizenship.docx
ACS_4 DS-4079.pdf
When my mother made a renunciation appointment, they sent these documents:
2 Renunciation – Advice About Possible Loss of Nationality.docx
3 Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship.docx
4 Renunciation of US Citizenship by Persons Claiming Right of Residence.docx
5 Renunciation Questionnaire.docx
The point of my previous post was that the Calgary consulate sent me both the questionnaire and Form 4079 for a relinquishment.
The questionnaires for renunciation and relinquishment are slightly differnet. The renunciation document has these two extra questions:
Any advice about giving or not giving the optional reasons for renouncing? I think you have the choice again orally during the interview?
Does anybody know the significance or have a recommendation for the question:
Swearing to an oath has religious connotations. Affirming does not. They appear to be equally valid.
@all
I have a question about following CLN.
I went in July to Toronto Counsel …and they said it would take about 4 months. I hope so.. but I got no paperwork or number…How does one follow up on it?
I didn’t pay any money or fill out forms for FBUR as I became a Canadian citizen in 1993. I told the Counsel I was there for my CLN.
@ northernstar,
You can e-mail the consulate. They can look it up by your name. I did that after waiting several months and they got back to me pretty quickly, an hour or two. [Unfortunately, they told me it was still in Washington – probably a coincidence, but it ended up being approved in Washington two days later. I got it three weeks later.]
Three weeks ago I emailed the Calgary consulate to ask about the next available appointment. I got a reply in less than an hour.
Two weeks ago my mother asked for a booking and emails were exchanged and it was all set up within 2 hours.
Early Monday morning I sent an email requesting an appointment (for January). I didn’t get a reply so I re-sent it Wednesday morning. Now Thursday morning, and still no reply. I wonder what’s going on?
I e-mailed the Calgary consulate Monday morning and have not yet had a reply. I wasn’t sure when to expect one so have not followed up. Will do so now.
DM56,
I’ve only been 1/2 following your comments re: your particular situation, so pardon me if I am out to lunch on here, but my concern is that what I am hearing is that you are renouncing to get a CLN so banks cannot close your accounts, but you are not going to file.
If this is your motivation and your plan, I am thinking that you may be acting needlessly at best, and perhaps causing yourself more problems at worst. First, a post over at Maple Sandbox (by Tim I think) discussed a closed door meeting between bankers and finance department seemed to be suggesting that one of the agreements with USA for an IGA is that no accounts will be closed – reported on, yes, but not closed. If this is correct, you won’t need a CLN to keep your accounts.
Second, renouncing without filing is leaving you self open to future problems. Currently, IRS knows nothing about you. Renouncing could put you on their radar.
Of course, without a crystal ball to see how this will all play out, it can be difficult to figure out what is best to do. Good luck to you!
DM56,
So, taking this another step…
renounce + not filing = $454 + maybe IRS will knock on your door later
don’t renounce + don’t file = maybe IRS will knock on your door later
renounce + file = $ + life credit units + maybe IRS will assess penalties/taxes + eventual freedom