Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@renouncing and CLN
Remember to get a receipt for the renunciation fee. It says on the receipt that the $450 US dollars are the renunciation fee and that it is non-refundable – make a copy to take with you if you plan to travel stateside before you get your CLN. I am still waiting for my CLN to show up having this summer, so I am glad I remembered to ask for a receipt. I backfiled 6 years to the IRS and Treasury Dept., have so far heard nothing and hope it stays that way. I owed nothing and did not tick the “refund” box.
Congrats to those earning other citizenships and renouncing today!
I only had one year I was required to file and that one year they owe me. Streamlined really scares me but, as some of you have said I might still be able to just mail them in. However, Phil said this would put me at risk for penalties for late filing the one year? There is no GOOD way to do this. Thank you all so much for your input. With my renouncing appointment coming up *don’t laugh* I have found myself quite sad about this suddenly. I want to be free of all this though and so see no other way. It’s just the dirty low dealing, back stabbing manner in which it has occurred that have been a let down. If they wanted to disallow dual it would be better than this.
I don’t know what Phil’s fees are to help…his advice is good and he has been helpful online. My spouse is going to really love any further fees though. Kermit…hope your day is going well!
@AtticusinCanada
I can’t tell by your posts for sure whether or not you realize this, but if you filed a tax return in 2009 or later, you are not eligible for the Streamlined Procedure and will be treated as high risk.
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Instructions-for-New-Streamlined-Filing-Compliance-Procedures-for-Non-Resident-Non-Filer-US-Taxpayers
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/non-resident_questionnaire.pdf
@Kermitzii, best of luck tomorrow!! 🙂
Its completed, in Vancouver. The second interview was quite short compared to the first. Just three basic questions (I forgot what they were). They said they will mail the CLN within 6 months. Also they said they have nothing to with tax issues, they just make sure the forms are filled out properly. They did not even ask for a reason to renounce. At the end I asked them about the backlog of applications and that I knew of people who cannot get appointments. They said in October they will email applicants, I guess there is an email waiting list? There was not when I applied last November.
The best thing was next door they were making a TV series:
http://filmingvancouver.blogspot.ca/2013/08/the-tomorrow-people-trailer.html
“Tomorrow people”. There were at least 100 even 200 people swarming around a city block with a dozen trucks and cables on the ground everywhere. I would estimate it costs at least a hundred thousand per day. Where does the money come from? It is a private production company and not a network.
@kermitzii,
Congratulations, another Vancouverite sheds the albatross of U.S. citizenship.
It would be good news if Vancouver starts to open up more appointments. I, personally, know two retired UBC Professors, who plan on filing for CLNs based on long ago relinquishment s. neither one wants to go to Calgary or Toronto. I will tell them you were told things might change in October.
@kermitzii,
Congrats on the achievement!
I’ve emailed the consulate in Melbourne, got an auto-reply that they will answer in 5-7 days….
Congrats, kermitzii!!!!
Does anyone think Van has not been booking appointments for ages because they screwed themselves by sticking to the two appointment process? The second appointments could eat up months of appointment spots for new renunciants.
That would be too simple an explanation. They simply show zero spots. Still don’t know how you are supposed to get an appointment .
I think the two appointments is a part of it (and that requiring two appointments is ridiculous — it’s a local rule, it’s not required by law or regulations and they were told almost a year ago that they could and should switch to one), but there’s more to it.
Even in the months where Vancouver made first appointment bookings available (some months they don’t), I don’t think I ever saw more than 12 slots for the whole month. Toronto usually makes 176-192 available per month, every month.
The two consulates don’t appear to be much different in size, from what I’ve been able to find out. According to the DFAIT directory last year Vancouver has 29 employees and Toronto has 31.
Calgary and Halifax, which are pretty small consulates manage to schedule appointments regularly, although wait time at Calgary has gone from about 1 month in Autumn 2011 to about 3 or 4 months in Autumn 2013 (the volume of CLN applications has gone up sharply and steadily across Canada since this first because an issue in the news in Summer 2011, and Calgary is picking up Vancouver’s slack.)
I think Vancouver just doesn’t want to do it and is dragging their heels as much as they can.
When I was talking today to the Chief Consulate officer in Vancouver who is super-professional, he went aside and talked to two others, for like 15 minutes. I think he is training them to to handle the first level of applications (he is the second and top level). I could barely hear what they were talking about it was very basic matter like what forms are required. But if I can brag, I imagined he said my application was regarded as model, maybe because the Chief remembered my from last February when by chance, I happened to an issue of the Economist with an article about German expats, I forgot the issue. Anyway for Vancouver I predict increased capacity. The chief is the one I renounce to and I have to admit I choked on the last few words. That told him I knew the meaning. Pacifica 777 I think Vancouver might be slowly changing like the erosion of the mountains.
Pacifica I do not know how consulates run but I suspect it is run by the chief who I hoped a made an impression upon today, he makes the decisions about how to move beyond.
@ Kermit. Very interesting information. Thanks. Let’s hope that’s what it means (and that he assigns another vice consul or two to handle that part of it, so it doesn’t remain bottlenecked at that level). I hope they’re doing a serious overhaul, including switching to one visit. Ottawa did a major 180 degree turn this January, so hope springs eternal 🙂
@Bubblebustin, Thank you so much! I appreciate it, I am so happy to now be a Canadian! Now for the next step. Yea!!
Upon further reflection, I wonder how much the differences between consulates on handling renunciation (esp 1 vs 2 visits) is simply due to differences in the Chief Consulate Officer. I don’t think Consulates are centrally run, they only report to the State Department. So each Consulate may be the kingdom of the Chief Consulate officer of that Consulate. In Vancouver I think we have somebody who is cautious but diligent. But I see signs of an attempt to increase efficiency (that he seemed to be training two new people in the middle of my interview! Using my forms as examples).
Also I forgot to mention this, but I overheard a bit of the conversation between the Chief and the two “trainees”. Something to the effect that two visits is a burden to people on Vancouver Island. I would add Northern BC as well. So the Chief does have that issue on his mind.
@kermitzii
For a range of reasons I won’t go into here, I strongly agree with your perception and suggestion of how the consulates are run. That explains a lot, and it fits in with my personal experience from decades of working in the Canadian federal government in Ottawa but spending a lot of time in regional offices, visiting with staff, observing, and most of all LISTENING to the people on the ground, in the field. No large government bureaucracy with lots of field offices across the country, never mind across the planet, is ever going to have consistency or “one size fits all” administration and practices, no matter what the bloody manual says. Local people exercise lots of discretion, for reasons which make sense to them if not to anyone else, and there isn’t a whole lot HQ and auditors from HQ can do to change that, human nature and practical realities being what they are. Unfortunately, this causes problems for some people (like a lot of folks who’ve gone to Vancouver, and until recently those who went to the embassy in Ottawa). The best we can do is spot the problems, warn people, and suggest work-arounds (like going to another office when that’s feasible, and keeping track of which offices seem most reasonable in their treatment of cases).
Are the employees in these consulates all US citizens? Maybe the Vancouver office is short-staffed because many of the US citizens there got fed up with the IRS, FBARs, FATCA, etc and moved back to the US.
There’s an Asian man at the Vancouver consulate I’ve seen there for decades. He’s Canadian.
@ Kermitzii, Yes, it’s pretty much up to the chief of the American Citizen Services dept at each consulate how they implement expatriation and who, as in any office, sets the tone for the office.
I think you’re right about “cautious but diligent.” Over-cautious — eg, they wouldn’t accept Tiger’s birth certificate because it had been folded up for decades and her father’s middle name wasn’t clear. She ended up having to provide 4 birth certificates (I don’t recall the exact details, I can try to find the link to her story and paste it in here).
In Vancouver’s favour, there are a few positives. The tone of the office: Everyone, includuing those who had these delaying nit-picky problems, found the people quite pleasant to interact with — the staff definitely hasn’t been instructed to bully people. Also: one Brocker, who relinquished years ago went to Van for his CLN, had got a US passport after he relinquished because he thought he had to use one to enter the US The ACS chief wasn’t sure, so he contacted Washington for guidance on this rather than just say “no way.” I cannot imagine Ottawa having done that back in 2011-12 as they were trying to convince slam-dunks that they didn’t have a case. (As for this person at Van, it worked out positively, that the person, due to the circumstances, hadn’t been trying to re-establish citizenship in getting the passport, btw.) Also, btw, this guy was lucky that his appointments were during a short window of time in Summer/September 2012, when Van was scheduling second meetings as close as 10 days apart. By October, they were back to scheduling the 2 meetings a year apart. Then in November they were told they didn’t even have to have 2 meetings, but kept on doing so.
I’ve found Vancouver to be very puzzling. I really hope that what you’ve observed indicates that Vancouver will be speeding things up soon. Earlier you’d written that they told you they’d be e-mailing appointment applicants in October (as they haven’t been accepting bookings for a while). At first I thought, oh, well, they’ll be making available another 12 appointments and telling the people to come back next year for a second meeting. But with your observations, I have hope they’re making a big change and gearing up to start a much higher volume and more rapid procedure in October.
About the Vancouver consulate the Chief, just my guess that he is behind the slowness, but based upon the observation that he was training people on the fly, just makes me wonder how Consulates are run. I respect him he was totally professional but I wonder if he is a control freak. He was great in the interview with me. Now two days after, I find myself watching a show about Queen Elisabeth when she was made queen in early 1950s. I feel alliance for the Queen, for the first time ever, but maybe that is because she is on all our money. I found this calendar of her buried below the floor in early 50`s when she became Queen.
Hello there,
This might be a question that has been asked before, but I did try to find it by going back in the thread and didn’t–sorry if I didn’t go far enough.
I was born in Canada to American (citizen) parents, so I’m stuck with my US citizenship. I have never lived in the US.
In 2012, I pulled myself into compliance…I think. I filed 6 years of $0 tax returns and 6 years of FBARs. I did have help and advice, but I was very scared about making a mistake. I received no response to any of that material. This year, I filed a US $0 tax return and an FBAR–again no response.
I would now like to renounce my US citizenship and be done with this, but can I? I have no evidence, other than photocopied forms, that I am in compliance with US law (as far as I know). I also don’t understand how I would file taxes for my final year of citizenship (this year, I hope). I do not want to start tangling with the US consulate until I basically understand what’s going on and my rights. Though I consider myself a smart person, so far most of what I have found on the web is beyond me. Can anyone here explain it to me in a very simple way?
I’d really appreciate any advice you may have.
Thanks!
Nina
@Nina
The certification that you are in compliance with your US tax obligations on Form 8854 (which you send in with your final year tax return) is a self-certification you provide under penalty of perjury. You aren’t required to provide additional evidence but I would retain copies of your filed returns, proof of postage etc. just in case.
If you renounce in 2013 (as I have), then for 2013 you file your 1040 for the period from Jan 1 up to your renunciation date and a 1040NR (if you have US source income eg dividends from US shares) after your renunciation date to the end of the year. The renunciation date is the date you visit the embassy to renounce your citizenship (as opposed to the date your Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) is approved or the date you receive your CLN).
Hi Nina,
Unlike Canada Revenue Agency, IRS doesn’t send out acknowledgement of receipt for tax returns and FBARs. So no news tends to be good news.
You won’t need to show tax forms at the consulate. Basically Dept of State handles the citizenship side of things and they don’t care if one has filed or not.
As for what you need to bring to the consulate, you can read about that in the Consulate Report Directory – but it varies a little bit from place to place, and even at the same consulate could change over time — so you could check directly with your consulate – some consulates automatically send you a list when you book your appointment.
For some consulates (Toronto, for example) you book your appointment directly on line. For others (Calgary, for example), you book your appointment by e-mail.
Once you renounce, you have until June 15 of the following year to file your 2012 return and the exit tax return (8854) – and I believe you can get an extension til Oct 15th (but I’m not sure).
You would file the 2012 1040 for your income from Jan 1st to renunciation day – likewise FBAR. If you have US source income, you would file a 1040-NR for ONLY US-source income for the balance of the year. [If you don’t have US-source income, I’ve heard that you don’t need to file a 1040-NR (which seems logical) and I’ve also heard that you’re supposed to file one filling it with zeros (which sounds wacky, but IRS can be) – so I don’t know, but I’m sure someone else here knows.]