Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Benedict,
The difference between the Calgary experience (at least my family’s) and those reported for Vancouver is like night and day. I’m really glad you made the decision for the extra expense to travel to Calgary (instead of Vancouver) — of course no one should have to fork out additional funds for travel / accommodation when it could be in your own vicinity, but what it saves a person in stress, two appointments vs only one, continual obstruction to completion, is worth it many times over. Until I hear otherwise, I’m a cheerleader for the Calgary US Consulate and their effectiveness.
WhatAmI,
I don’t know who the Moodys’ citizenship guy is but I do know that they will accompany persons to their renunciation / relinquishment appointment (which is an accomplishment in itself and I’m not sure if that would be the case for all US consulates — rather doubt it). They knew that I did not need hand-holding and neither should anyone else who does enough research on the procedures here at Isaac Brock. Pacifica’s excellent Consulate Report Directory (http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/) is one of the best resources I’ve seen for research on experiences at various US consulates on what can be expected. A good read will highlight what I am saying regarding Calgary vs Vancouver.
Today’s required reading assignment for all from USCitizenAbroad: http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2013/08/29/ill-be-back-revisiting-expatriation-for-tax-purposes-vs-expatriation-for-citizenship-purposes/
@WhatAmI
I guess you can choose to believe some guy that wants to charge you $8,000.00 to $12,000.00 to believe your CLN dated prior to 1994 is useless OR you can take the advice of a lawyer like Michael Miller who has done detailed research and phoned the IRS on the subject.
I know this, the point of view described by Miller makes sense and it would be impossible for the IRS to try to re-write history (let alone trying to figure out how far back to go and how many settled Estates to ‘unsettle’).
@WhatAmI, unless you are going to be a covered expat and have hundreds of millions, then you don’t need their help. Renunciation/reinquishment is simple with no need for any legal/accountant types to come with you. Don’t waste several thousand unless your tax situation demands it; getting rid of your citizenship at the embassy/consulate certainly doesn’t.
@calgary411
Yes, I read the entire Consulate Report Directory Report looking to see if anybody in my situation (born dual in the US and returned to Canada as a child) has been successful in getting a back-dated CLN. There isn’t anybody there with my history. The issue is simply that most people born dual never had the need to perform an expatriating act, such as being naturalized in Canada, other than INA 350 and voting in elections (all prior to 1978).
@Only a Canadian
At this point, I am comfortable ignoring the IRS if I get a 1973 CLN, but I can’t help wondering what the boarder guard’s computer is going to show down the road when they are linked to the IRS in real-time. In fact, if it weren’t for FATCA I’m almost comfortable ignoring the IRS without even getting a CLN since I can probably live with never entering the US again.
WhatAmI Fatca shouldn’t influence your decision whether or not you need a CLN. As far as your bank is concerned, you are Canadian. They can’t ask where you were born. They do ask citizenship when opening new accounts but you could comfortably answer ‘Canadian’
@Medea and others,
Don’t worry friends, I have no need or intention of retaining anybody to help with my relinquishment or my mother’s renunciation. I simply attended a free seminar given by Moody’s. My mother and I would never be covered expats based on the 8854 tests of tax history or net worth. I would be exempt (non-covered expat) anyway due to being born a dual national.
To be fair to Moody’s and their prices, years ago they advertised themselves “for high net-worth clients”. I don’t see those words on their website now though. I would say the problem is that low net-worth people need the same level of expertise as high net-worth people, and it doesn’t come cheap. However, I think that expertize has been and will continue to grow as time goes on, and it can be found for less. And as Calgary411 says, the information here at IBS is all most people need.
@WhatAmI, if you were born dual then you cannot get a backdated CLN. Where would they backdate it to? You have to renounce. If you were born American/Canadian relinquishment isn’t an option.
@KalC
Speculation as to what our banks will ask us if they have to comply with FATCA has opinions all over the map. I find it hard to believe that if FATCA comes to Canada, we can hide from it as simply as you describe (although of course it is my hope that we could).
For example, say our feds bend over for FATCA. I might be wrong, but I think accounts less than $1 million only require electronic searches for US indicia. It’s not a big stretch to assume that the search by the bank will have access to and include the fed’s record of a US birthplace.
@ WhatAmI
I am familiar with one person who may fit your criterion of born dual but received a back dated CLN.
This person was born to Canadian citizen(s) in the US but the birth was not registered. S/He subsequently naturalized in Canada. Under current Canadian citizenship law the registration requirement was retroactivly removed and s/he could apply to have their citizenship backdated to their birth. S/He would then be concidered born a dual.
I dont think thats s/he applied in this case because there was no advantage in doing so and I am pretty sure that this fact pattern would not apply in your case. But it is possible.
@Medea
Exactly the problem. It’s ironic that 100% USCs with no prior connection to Canada and who came to Canada years ago as adult, working, tax-paying USCs have a much easier time dumping their USC and the IRS than accidental Americans who are Canadians with little ties to the US, never worked there, etc.
Anyway, I have posted my hope and claim for a back-dated CLN here a few times (and there is an old thread devoted to my case). I included part of my story it in a post above earlier today but then erased it to make the post shorter. I’m happy to post it now since as time goes by, everyone here at IBS learns more and more and perhaps ideas and opinions have changed.
I was born in the US in 1954 to Canadian parents. We returned to Canada in 1966 when I was 12. Never had any US involvement: no passport, never worked, no SSN, no tax filing, etc.
* INA 350 was removed in 1978 but it applied to me (but I didn’t turn the required 25 years of age until three months after October 1978).
* INA 349 included voting in elections as an expatriating act until 1978.
* Most importantly, in the early 1970’s I went to the US consulate in Calgary to make sure my USC would or had already lapsed automatically (at age 18, or 21 or whenever) and to do whatever was necessary to end my USC. As a kid, I was told by my mother that I would have dual-citizenship until some age. The consul told me that “dual-citizenship did not officially exist, that I was not an American, that I was Canadian”, and he escorted me out the door.
@Benedict was told by a US consul in Vancouver in the 70’s that he was not a USC. After an hour of him insisting the importance of this, the consulate in Calgary finally accepted the point and submitted his CLN application to Washington. He’s still waiting to hear. In this aspect his history and mine are similar, but he was naturalized as a Canadian as a child whereas I was born dual.
I also wrote but erased (to keep it shorter and general) in a previous post today that I told the fellow at Moody’s about my visit to the US consulate and asked if he thought I’d get a back-dated CLN. He said “Yes, very likely”, but that’s when he went on to say the part that I did post above (that the IRS would ignore the date and still want compliance). I choose to agree with Only a Canadian above and Mr Miller that a CLN prior to 1994 does close the door on any IRS claim.
I am am hopeful for a back-dated CLN even though I have no proof of my consular visit. I’m waiting before making an appointment, partly to hear if Benedict’s CLN is approved (he had no proof either).
So, that’s my back-dated CLN claim.
I forgot to mention in my previous post that I have Canadian citizenship though a Registration of Birth Abroad.
@Just a Canadian
I don’t think it’s at all the same since that person naturalized as a Canadian and that’s the key act that such people have that I do not. They just have to claim that they did it with the intention of relinquishing their USC.
@Benedict naturalized, but as a child. The rules relating to children also changed in 1978. I think he didn’t know about that angle when he applied for the CLN in April based on being told by the US consulate that he wasn’t a USC, but he might be able to use those rules and more that he’s since learned if he is denied and has to try again. (@Benedict, sorry for speaking for you and I hope I have it right…)
The retroactive change to Canadian citizenship laws (2004 was it?) that makes many people Canadian citizens retroactive to birth also applies to Benedict, but I don’t know of any way that it’s helpful with regards to getting rid of USC or the IRS, other than it makes you a non-covered expat on form 8854 as long as you are compliant with IRS filing for the previous 5 years. That could be huge for people who might otherwise be covered expats.
@Just a Canadian
There was a woman here several weeks ago who does have the same history as I have, but I haven’t seen her here lately.
I think her name is Carole? If there’s a way to search anything other than thread titles on this site I haven’t found it. Oh, I remember, wasn’t she the one who was hoping to claim her oath as an employee to the Atomic Energy Board of Canada as an expatriating act?
@ WhatAmI
Her story is here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-36/
I miss the editing function 🙁
My point in the story above is that this person could claim either retroactive renunciation based on his/her naturalization or a current renunciation and use the “certian dual citizen” exemption. In this particular case the best option would be the retroactive one because of the pre 2004 timeframe. If a person was wealthy and naturized after 2008 it might be preferable to use the dual citizen exemption to avoid the exit tax.
@ What am I,
I believe it’s Dianne.
I don’t know any way to search except the thread titles in the Archives. I’m able to search comments, so I pulled up these — there’s several in between the first two listed, which she posted in July.
(There are some others besides these, but I can’t look now. Let me know if you’d like me to, though, and I could check later this evening or tomorrow.)
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-32/#comment-434706
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-32/#comment-435408
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/01/13/ask-your-questions-about-renunciation-and-relinquishment-of-united-states-citizenship-discussion-thread/comment-page-43/#comment-37825
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/01/13/ask-your-questions-about-renunciation-and-relinquishment-of-united-states-citizenship-discussion-thread/comment-page-39/#comment-30793
I think she is the person that Petros featured in this article in May 2012: Dianne didn’t know the United States still thought she was an American
@Just a Canadian
Yes, thanks, that’s her. “Dianne”. I knew her name ended with an “e”! I hope we hear some good news from her.
@pacifica777, yes, it was Dianne. @Just a Canadian found her too.
Thanks for links, especially the dedicated thread from last year. I think I missed that one. I’ll read through it.
WhatAmI ” It’s not a big stretch to assume that the search by the bank will have access to and include the fed’s record of a US birthplace.”
Actually that is a big stretch. The bank will search it’s own records for US indicia. Full stop. The banks will not be looking to report anyone they are not obliged to.
… who are their clients, and by going to heroic lengths or the great US witch hunt will shoot themselves in the foot. Hopefully, they will do the least necessary with the gun of FATCA to their heads.
@KalC, of course I hope you’re right.
On the other hand, people have posted here that they have no doubt that the banks will ignore the $50,000 threshold and search and report people they are not obliged to report. Which is it?
With the billions of dollars of cost across the industry for FATCA compliance, it seems unreasonable that it would not be done to the extent of checking every account holder’s birthplace. I’ve seen that question in the list of indicia in various FATCA and IGA documents.
If a person decides to lay low and gets surprised by a question from their bank such as “Were you born in the US?”, then what? How much time will you have to react before they punt you as a client?
Early on in the world of FATCA, I thought I read that a person would never be reported (by a bank) to the IRS without their permission. The assumption/idea being that they could choose to close their account instead. I haven’t seen this issue mentioned for quite awhile. It relates to deciding if hiding from FATCA is possible or feasible. Does an IGA mean that unlike the banks (if it was ever true), the Canadian feds would send your info to the US without your permission?
I’ve seen people say it will be easy to hide form FATCA, others say it will be impossible. Which is it?
I don’t think I’m being paranoid. There’s just no way to answer any of these questions right now.
I’d say that logic and reasonableness and hope have no place in trying to predict the behaviour of the US and IRS or even with our own government and banks here, yet it’s the basis of the majority of our posts (including mine).
Since I have a change for a back-dated CLN, that’s still my working plan for now. I fear a downside of trying for a back-dated CLN is that if it is denied, you potentially become known to the IRS and can no longer hide. Nobody knows if this is or will be a possibility. Once the IRS initiates an investigation on you, you can no longer voluntarily disclose, catch-up, etc, and avoid penalty demands. Yes, the Canadian feds will not help collect these, but…
I sent an email to the Calgary consulate today saying that I heard they were booked up to the end of the year for relinquishments/renunciations, and asked about the availability of appointments. I got a reply in 38 minutes saying
That was followed by another email that was identical to the one that @Benedict quoted earlier today:
The difference between renouncing and not renouncing is that if one renounces, then one is still a tourist when one does tourism in America:
From the news Aug 19th:
27. August 2013 – Lawyer Marnin J. Michaels has renounced US citizenship and is listed in the Federal Register.
http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/16224810
Translation: Should the proposed legislation become law, then ex-citizen Marnin Michaels, who is now only Swiss, will never agin be able to visit his family and friends overseas. On top of that, Michaels is threatened with a juicy one-time payment to free himself from the USA with its huge groaning debt load.
3 years ago, Marnin Michaels stated:
http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/16224810
“US embassies are going to automatically check tax-compliance with passport renewals”
I don’t know if US embassies do that, but I know that Eritrea is internationally condemned for similar practices.
@SwissPinoy, well it’s one of the proposals that are put about up on the Hill, but there’s nothing definite in law yet.
@Saddened, congrats from me as well. One more now has true liberty. Hoorah!
@WhatAmI, well you might be succesful with a relinquishment. I guess it depends on what the rules were back then. If not, then you’ve always got the renunciation to fall back on. Certainly America didn’t officially recognise dual citizenship back then.