Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@ Pierre,
A person can renounce US citizenship before being in tax compliance. Loss of citizenship is handled by Department of State. Tax enforcement is not in DoS’ mandate, and, as far as we know, except for one rogue consulate, which was told to quit doing it and has, the consulates don’t even ask about it.
To log out of IRS, you have to file your exit tax form 8854 by 15 June of the year following renunciation. On that form you have to certify that you’ve been in tax compliance for the previous five years. So, if you renounce in 2013, you have until 15 June 2014 to file 2008-12, 2013 (partial year) and 8854.
Yes. INS no longer exists, though. It was replaced by USCIS (Citizenship and Immigration), ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) and CBP (Customs and Border Protection). These three groups which replaced INS are also separate from IRS.
At this time, as far as has been reported at Brock and Maple Sandbox, no one has been asked about IRS matters when entering the US.
It’s not clear to me. Are you talking about a renunciation AND a relinquishment in your family that will happen? Or only one, a relinquishment? Was the relinquishing act prior to 2004?
There’s one Brocker I know of who’s been asked about tax compliance at the border, Halifax, I believe. ACA has had unverified reports. Not commonplace, as I understand…yet.
What is the chance of every border agent being trained to not ask anyone about taxes if their CLN is dated before 2004 (or is it 1995?)?
@Bubblebustin,
Thanks for mentioning. I didn’t recall that and I don’t want to spread mis-information. Yeah, it was Broken Man on A Halifax Pier wrote that he was asked that question at Pearson Airport last year.
I’ve no clue if CBP transmits information to IRS, but according to regs DoS sends a copy of each CLN to IRS, so a former American would get on the IRS’ radar screen that way anyway. Likewise, I’ve no clue if IRS follows up on these CLNs or not, probably depends if the fruit is low-hanging or high-hanging.
@Pierre, Pacifica777 is right. That’s exactly what I’ve done. I renounced in March, have done my back filing up to 2012 and will file my 2013 return and form 8854 next year.
Thanks Pacifica: (further to my question of Aug 28 around 2200hrs)
My wife received CDN citizenship in 1999, but did use her US passport until it expired (2007). Does the US know that she’d used her passport for entry into the USA? The first renewal ever since 1999 was a CDN passport. She filed tax returns until 2002 until we said “screw this”!
I have a green card that expired in 2000….or so I thought. I had left the USA never to live there again in 1991. I filed those tax returns until it “expired.”
What I’m getting at is, I just want to get the CLN (for both of us?) so I can have a normal banking life here, and to hell with any IRS “compliance” and I’ll never go back there again. My sympathies to all of those fine hospitality industry workers in the USA who will suffer as a result, but I’ve got to look after my family.
@PierreD, your wife will have to renounce as she’s been using her American passport and filing US tax returns since acquiring Canadian citizenship. You will need to file a form I-407 I believe it is, you can’t renounce as you are not a US citizen, but are probably still considered to be a US resident or US person for tax purposes.
The Vancouver Consolate has the following notice on thier website at: http://vancouver.usconsulate.gov/service/special-consular-services.html
Special Consular Services are services other than passport and nationality issues. Routine Special Consular Services are provided to American citizens on a walk-in basis from 9:00 am until 12:30 pm, Monday through Friday, except American and Canadian holidays. Notarial services are provided by appointment only. …
Could It be that you cannot book an appointment for renouncation because you are now allowed to just walk in?.
https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/make_calendar.asp?nMonth=12&nYear=2014&type=3&servicetype=09&pc=VAC
Have tried from August 2013 to December 2014 — all calendar pages for “notarial services and other services” showing “Date already passed or not yet open for appointments.”
Their “Contact” page says:
(The equivalent Calgary email address, Calgary-ACS@state.gov, where appointments are booked for Calgary.)
Too bad all US consulates in Canada (and world-wide) do not follow the same standards of procedure for renunciations and relinquishments.
I must note that the calendar page does not show any dates as “Appointment Date Fully Booked”
So its not that they have “run out of appointments”, they are simply not accepting appointments for Special Consular Services at all. This is clearly different from their previous policy that required a appointment. So it maybe that if you want to renounce you would have to do the walk in service between 9:00 and 12:30.
Has anybody from Vancouver tried the walk in approach or been able to get an appointment in the last 6 months or so?
Only if they choose to be reasonable 🙂
@ Just a Canadian,
Their notice says “Special Consular Services are services OTHER THAN passport and nationality issues”, applying for a CLN would be considered a Nationality issue.
Having dealt with the Vancouver Consulate, there is not a doubt in my mind that they would NOT deal with the CLN forms on a walk-in basis.
The fact that they have not yet opened the calendar for September for Notarial Services, could possibly indicate a change in policy might be in the works for this fall, or possibly a cleaning up of their backlog, or just more obstruction.
@Just a Canadian
“Special Consular Services are services other than passport and nationality issues” is not to say that passport and nationality services are routine 🙂 And just what are “Routine Special Consular Services”?
No wonder the Vancouver consulate is in disarray.
@Tiger
I am not entirly sure about that. The appointment request page has 4 options.
– Add visa pages to undamaged, valid U.S. passport.
– Passport services other than adding pages.
– Report the birth abroad of a child of a U.S. citizen and/or apply for the childs first passport, Report of Birth and Social Security Number.
– Request notarial and other services not listed above.
In the past we were required to use the notorial services option for renounciations but that option does not seem to be available. If you look at the calendar for the other services you see that is shows days that are fully booked as a different color, there are no such colored dates for notorial services. I dont recall seeing it showing anything other than not open for appointments for months. Its not that they are being filled quickly, they simply are not accepting ANY appointments for notarial and other services.
Your only option is to walk in and take your chances, book under another category, or wait until such time that they are accepting appointments again. If there was a silent policy change you could be wating for a long time for an appointment to open up.
@Just a Canadian
I bypassed Vancouver in Feb 2013 and made an appointment with Calgary for April 10th, 2013…flew in by Westjet and back out same day (cost of transpotation and time similar to methods to get to Vancouver)…
Although I am still awaiting my CLN, Calgary has been prompt in responding to my regular update inquiries by email (same day response)…their latest comment Tuesday was:
Although your application for a Certificate of Loss of Nationality was sent in to the Department in a timely fashion, it is our understanding that there is a huge backlog. I am hoping to hear that your case has been approved any day now as yours is among the earliest, as yet unapproved, submissions.
and also to a same day follow up by me…
I can appreciate you are anxious to receive your Certificate of Loss of Nationality. Unfortunately, there has been a deluge of such cases worldwide. I will mention your situation to see if that helps.
Polite…though maybe standard policy…
@Benedict Arnold be
Oh, you don’t live in Calgary? Damn, I was looking forward to meeting up and having a celebratory beer together when we both get our CLNs.
No, I don’t…but in what WATERING HOLE would that be ? pun intended, given the Calgary Flood.. 🙂
@Benedict Arnold, interesting few words used there: “huge backlog” and “deluge”. I wonder how many those words signify. A lot more than we’re seeing reporting on the official site, that’s for sure.
@Benedict Arnold be
I have a sailboat, so any body of water will do! 😉
It might have to be a “virtual beer” then, although I occasionally make it to Kimberley and The Island.
Benedict,
No, I don’t believe that your reply from the Calgary Consulate was just some standard policy. From my experience, the US Consulate in Calgary truly communicated back and forth with me on more than one issue, cancellation, then re-booking appointments. They were not, with me or my husband or my daughter, anything but helpful and respectful in regard to our renunciations.
I agree with Medea, Calgary did give to you some interesting information regarding backlog and deluge.
I heard recently that Calgary has 4 renunciation slots per day, but only on Tue/Wed/Thu.
Are these same slots used for relinquishment meetings (IE to inform then I gave up my USC 40 years ago and apply for a back-dated CLN)? I heard they only have a few slots open in December, otherwise the rest of this year is booked up.
I’m agonizing over making an appointment sometime soon, or waiting until next year. It may be the decision is out of my hands anyway.
Does Calgary have a viewable appointment calendar?
WhatAmI,
Calgary does have a viewable appointment calendar for notarial services, but renunciations / relinquishment appointments are only on certain days (which have fluctuated so not sure of what those are presently).
Best to email them: Calgary-ACS@state.gov, asking specific questions, which (unless things have somehow drastically changed), I’d think you will get a reply to your queries within one – three days. Really, they did communicate and made things fairly easy. I hope that is still the case!
@WhatAmI
I originally booked a slot that wasn’t appropriate..then received an email and asked them to fix it once I explained it was for Relinquishment…this they did…
yada yada yada…. 🙂
We will cancel the February 12th appointment for you. However we are booking into April already. We will contact you under separate cover with the next available appointment
@Calgary411
100 to 1 odds ..you are chuckling at my responses… 🙂
OK, I found the Calgary website, which clearly explains it:
I spoke with the “citizenship guy” at a Moody’s seminar on Monday. He actually accompanies clients to their renunciation interviews at the consulate. He was the one who told me the 4-per-day, Tue-Thu info I posted above. I heard him give a ballpark estimate of $8000 to $12000 to renounce with their help. That likely includes much more, such as setting up finances to do whatever it takes, if possible, to get under the $2M net worth test on the 8854 to not be a covered expat. He says Reed-Schumer will certainly pass.
I asked him about back-dated CLNs. He basically said “it doesn’t do you much good because the IRS will ignore the date and still want their compliance”. I pointed out that that doesn’t apply prior to 1995. I forget his exact response, but I took it as “Hey, we’re talking about the IRS…good luck with that”. That prompted me to make the posts I have in the last few days asking how one can prove to anybody (including the IRS if they come calling) that we don’t have to comply due to our back-dated CLN.