Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Good point, KingOfTheRoad. It may be up to us to make sure our countries’ banks or our countries’ tax divisions do not include our data in what they send to the US (to preclude then some kind of legal action for them having erroneously or incompetently done so).
@KingOfTheRoad
I am not sure about Privacy requirements in the UK…but in my case, in Canada, they requested I sign a Waiver..which I would not do…
This is pointed out on (with a link to the waiver form) :
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/08/01/td-waterhouse-begins-fatca-hunt-let-the-expatriation-games-begin/
If the UK has a Privacy Act…they would be exposed if they didn’t get your consent…and why would sign one, if you can provide a CLN?
@KingOfTheRoad
Here in Oz we enquired regarding what we should do to formally register the fact we were no longer US persons. We were advised to send certified copies of our CLNs to two government departments, the Australian Tax Office and the Department of Immigration and Citizenship, to be placed on our files. I rang up those offices before sending anything and they verified this was indeed the correct action to take. Both the tax office and the central government thus are now formally informed not to share any of our private information with a foreign power in violation of this nation’s statues. It’s possible that a similar process is appropriate in your own country; might be a good idea to ask about it.
ozteddies,
Thanks for relaying the very good information on action you and your partner took to make sure your financial information stays within your own country — never to be shared with a foreign entity.
@ozteddies
Did you give the information to your local bank as well, or did you open the account(s) as Australian citizens?
Remind me to do as you did re the ATO and DIAC.
I put in a request to expedite our ceremony because of my daughter’s travel. So far they seem to be ignoring it but I figured it didn’t hurt to ask.
I really don’t want to have to file for 2014. 🙁
calgary411
Our Department of Immigration and Citizenship told me that foreign consulates never tell Australia’s government about any changes in citizenship status. It is purely up to the individual to do this. I found no information at all on the government web sites about what to do in this situation either. Be proactive, ring up personally and ask. Otherwise the formal records will continue to indicate that one is a dual citizen.
@ shunrata
Do you mind my asking if you work for a bank here in Australia and if so, which bank?
@ ozteddies
I also contacted our Aus. Dept. of Immigration to report my CLN and they said they weren’t interested. I guess it depends on who you talk to.
@shunrata
Our only account is our mortgage, which was opened well after we became citizens. In 2012 I took our CLNs to the bank, hoping for them to place this on record. The bank manager refused to look at them, and told me it was not appropriate for the bank to know anything about such matters. We might yet have to present those anyway one day once FATCA takes its vile course, but last year the bank was not willing to pursue such things and sent me packing.
Will be happy to remind you about the ATO and DIAC once the time comes.
It took seven months between the dates my partner and I got approved for citizenship and the dates on which our ceremonies actually got scheduled. The waiting drove me bonkers! Several times I contacted them asking why this was taking so long and whether anything had gone awry. Always the response I received was simply to remain patient and wait my turn like everyone else. Deeply sympathise with your situation; hope you may get lucky and have them expedite things. Very much hope you won’t have to file for 2014. Cheers.
@Rose
I contacted the immigration department here in Melbourne with which I had dealt for many years. They said I should very definitely send them this information and also provided the correct specific address to which it needed to be sent. Perth is much smaller and may operate differently. It might be an option just to send them a CLN copy and cover letter anyway just so they keep that on file; doubt it could hurt.
@KingoftheRoad, Rev Susi is right, all UK info goes to HMRC and not directly to the US.
Don’t forget that good old ex-US passport of yours for additional proof. Mine now has a stamp on the We the People page that says “Lost US citizenship under the provision of Section 349(a)(5) INA on March 4th 2013” and signed by the Consul. I’d say that’s pretty clear back-up to your CLN.
@Rose
I work for a foreign bank in Australia – not an Australian bank. The bank has a large presence in the US so they’re stuck doing whatever the Americans say.
Australian banks haven’t given me any problems, I work with both ANZ and nab.
@Medea
They let you keep the cancelled passport? I thought they made you turn it in.
Thanks @calgary, Revsusi, Medea & Benedict!
Hmm. Well UK privacy provisions (noting eg the experiences of a recent London Heathrow transit passenger) may not be much to rely on. And HMRC is hardly famously responsive or accessible.
@Calgary picked up my concerns precisely. I’m not in the least worried about being able to prove that I’ve renounced… if asked to. But I might not be asked. Overwrought or sloppy FFIs might sweep up my data with those of others who have not renounced (yet). I might find myself back in conversation with the IRS and Treasury.
An ounce of prevention? So… Am seeking UK-specific advice on how to minimise that risk. Continue to be awed and grateful at what a wonderful resource you all are.
@KingoftheRoad
There are 2 things you can present, which will unequivocally prove that you are no longer a “US person”.
1) CLN (already mentioned)
2) US Form W-8BEN. (It’s just the opposite of W-9 for USPs.) Fill this out and give it to your bank. In it, you testify that you are not a USP. Your bank will not give this to the USA. If you give them this and they send anything at all to the USA despite this, you can/should sue them.
@shunrata, yes I handed it in when I did the renunciation, but it was returned to me, with holes punched in it and the stamp I mentioned inside, with the CLN and Oath.
If you want to ensure that you can not be considered a US person by an FFI you have to provide them with:
1) a copy of your CLN
2) a W-8
3) a copy of your non-US passport
This is the procedure outlined in the UK/US IGA for anyone who has a US place of birth and is precisely the procedure followed by one of my FFIs when I asked them how to make my account not FATCA reportable. There are different procedures depending on which of the US indicia you exhibit.
It remains to be seen what banks will do if they discover someone with one of the US indicia. Any finding of any US indicia causes them to have to report the account. There does not appear to be an obligation for an FFI to undertake further steps to determine whether someone who has a US indicia is indeed a US person. So, if you have previously given them a document with a US place of birth and are no longer a US citizen, I would send them items 1-3 above. If you have ever made two or more payments to the same US account, given them a US telephone number or US address, you are at risk. I wouldn’t wait for a letter from your FFI telling you they think you are a US person and would you like to prove to them that you are not. That letter may never arrive. As with many US things, if you have US indicia you are guilty unless proven innocent and the burden of proof and the onus is on you.
In the UK, you have the right to sue for damages from the FFI and HMRC if your data has been unlawfully forwarded to the US. However, if your account exhibits any of the US indicia the FFI would probably have a reasonable basis for having forwarded your data and they would likely be off the hook even if you are no longer a US citizen or have never been a US citizen. Furthermore, if your data has been forwarded unlawfully, I’m not sure how you would be able to prove damages.
I would not take any comfort from the fact that the data is sent to HMRC first. As far as I understand it, HMRC is merely as an intermediary for onward transmission of the data. I’m not aware that HMRC will undertake any steps with the data other than collating it.
@ shunrata I too received my US passport back, hole-punched and stamped.
@ Edelweiss. That’s the belt and braces preemptive reporting strategy, I guess. I don’t think I feel a need to do that, but I might change my mind. I’m not sure if my bank even asked for birthplace data when I opened the account, and that’s the only one of the ‘indicia’ I have.
@Edelweiss.
Suspect you are substantially correct. However…
Section 5.7 of the current HMRC Guidance Notes (www.hmrc.gov.uk/fatca/130814-guidance.pdf)
outline in Section 5.7 (pp 105-106) how the US indicium of a US birthplace can be “cured” (their word) for FATCA-reporting purposes.
A W8 is *not* specifically mentioned. Self certification of non-US-hood (the precise format of which appears to be left to the discretion of the FFI!) is discussed extensively in Section 4.8, on pages 79-86.
I am hoping this is something we can work on together, to produce a consistent and legally sound form of words that we can all use.
@shunrata
They took our old US passports off us the day we swore the oath and got our paperwork signed. Despite the fact those passports had expired years ago and had never been renewed.
When we finally received our CLNs in the post along with all the signed paperwork, the mailers included our old US passports. They had several holes punched in them and CANCELLED printed inside. A bit odd since those had expired so long ago anyway and obviously were no longer valid for anything. So yes, we do get to keep those.
@King, @Susy and @Edelweiss, I also share your concern about my bank still sending my information to hmrc and, thus, the IRS even though I’m no longer technically a US person. But I don’t really see why it should matter if I no longer have but a few hundred dollars in a US account; it’s not as though the US is easily going to be able freeze and seize my assets, all of which are now in the UK (apart from that few hundred dollars).
The IRS and FINCEN will have access to my name on the renunciant’s list, etc. too. So even if they still have information about my accounts here, why does it even matter really?
@ Monalisa, I guess it would matter if the US decided to change the rules, for whatever reason, to include ex-citizens in the FATCA reporting pool. Or to change anything else. And I still like to think that privacy and civil rights still exist. I know better, but still…
@Rev Susi, I’m sure the biggest risk is that our bank details could be hacked, especially if from an online banking account, etc. I also share your concern that they may one day change their laws so that former US citizens could more easily be deemed US persons with all the burdensome reporting and filing required yet again!
If nothing else, I could see them reducing the allowable number of days per year within the USA before one is considered to have a significant presense there.
So you can be a US person and fly under the indicia radar. Isn’t this FATCA’s achilles heal?
Yes, of course, Bubblebustin! And not to mention all the potential security breaches from all the information they do manage to gather, even possibly from people who’ve expatriated… what a royal pain but looks like I might have to close and change my bank account and then reopen as a non US person, etc.
I am already going to be moving my brokerage account and would imagine they’ll have me file a W8-Ben rather than the W9 since I’m now a non-US person. As for my savings, might just compromise and revert back to over-the-counter banking, as I’ve been with them for almost twenty years and am quite happy with them. Am also seriously thinking about buying gold for added security in case the fiat currencies (including pounds Sterling) collapse, etc.
monalisa. There is no need for you to change anything (As usual many brockers are over reacting)
Let’s just suppose your bank accidentally supplies your name to HMRC who then send it to the IRS. This isn’t going to happen but stay with me.
What’s the IRS going to do? Send you a computer generated letter? Have a hissy fit?
Let’s just say, for the sake of argument, you were to get a letter from a real person. You could then safely ignore it or send a copy of your CLN. End of.