Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Rose,
Thanks very much for pointing out that omission! I remember you posted after you got your CLN but forgot to revise your report. I’ll update it this evening and also change unspecified to Perth.
@Dianne
Check page 29 of this document. Somebody describes how they claimed the oath taken for a government job. Not enough details, but worth looking at:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
Good find, What am I!
I’m going to note that it’s a Halifax Report by Authentic, dated 2013.04, because the page number will probably change in some future edition of the Directory.
This jogged my memory that I had read something about this on Outraged Canadian’s website, the comment by SB, 4 December 2012.
http://outragedcanadian.ca/blog/?p=474#comments
@Pacifica777
Yes, I’m going through the document looking for duals since birth who successfully got a back-dated CLN. Do you recall seeing any?
@ WhoAmI,
That’s the only one I can think of. I just did a quick search, using the word birth, but didn’t see any others.
@Pacifica @WhatAmI @Dianne
Notice this later comment from Pacifica’s link to
http://outragedcanadian.ca/blog/?p=474#comments
Rob Scavone on January 17, 2013 at 6:28 am said:
Notice in particular this comment from that text:
and his supporting comments that he filed:
I would suggest that is “‘preponderance of evidence”
The above is similar to the supporting letter I supplied (against my lawyer’s suggestion, who said only give them what they ask for, no more,,,however, I wasn’t leaving without making my case heard)..of course I don’t have the final CLN yet…
Edit…I really messed up the blockquote in that posting… sorry…
@ Benedict,
Is this how your wanted the block quotes? If not, let me/us know.
BTW, I also included a separate statement to provide more information than was asked for on 4079 and expanded on some of the yes/no questions on the 4079 itself. I felt it was one of those, probably rare, times when it was best to answer more than I was asked. I put in everything I could think of to illustrate my lack of US citizenship – it felt quite cathartic too 🙂 !
yes…all good..thanks…Pacifica777
@Shunrata I had almost considered offering to attend your citizenship ceremony if you fancied, but am rather too shy to be suggesting things like that. Though given how vast Melbourne’s sprawl is, chances are you’d be doing that rather too distant from us to make that feasible anyway. My partner and I don’t drive nor own a vehicle. Citizenship ceremonies are generally held on Thursday evenings as I recall, inconvenient given having to work the following day. We live in a quiet inner suburb, with railway station, tram stops, numerous bus routes and some shopping all within five minutes walk from our door. Our local council holds its citizenship ceremonies less than a kilometre up the road from us. I’ve been to several of those other than my own as some British mates here decided to take the plunge and get Aussie citizenship. The ceremonies ranged from dreadfully dull to rather fun. Getting your CLN would certainly be something to celebrate of course, which I think you’d been referring to. I had thought you sounded like someone who might be interesting to meet up with for coffee and a nice chat one day, but again am a bit shy to be suggesting such things and certainly wouldn’t wish to offend (do forgive if I have done so).
@Rose Thanks for letting us know your “unspecified location” was actually Perth. Had been wondering about that all along, quite impressed too that the process there sounded so quick. You were certainly fortunate to escape the longer waiting times required here in Melbourne. Felt happy for you that you got your CLN and thus your well-deserved freedom.
@ozteddies @Rose @Shunrata
Thanks for your responses. I will definitely update the directory with our experience in Sydney which, at this stage, looks like it will be late 2014.
@ozteddies,
Re citizenship ceremony I would be honoured! I haven’t mentioned it, as at this point I don’t know how many people I can invite. Still waiting for the details.
Would love to meet up for a celebration (citizenship, CLN, whatever! 🙂 ) or just a cup of coffee – if feasible. I do have a car so am more mobile (but at the moment am flat out with several issues, only one of them is US citizenship…)
How can we communicate without posting personal information?
From the Australian tax website:
Why oh why can’t the IRS be like that?
@shunrata
Re the Australian Tax Office website – isn’t it refreshing to see the way they treat taxpayers here. I have family members who have personally experienced their helpfulness and spirit of goodwill. It definitely elicits far more cooperation from taxpayers than the draconian punitive approach of the IRS. Every time I return to Australia from a trip abroad I want to kiss the ground and this is one of the many reasons why!
@ozteddies
Yes, I was very fortunate to get my CLN within 20 days, which may be a record. I suspect there aren’t very many Americans here in Perth trying to renounce so the waiting times for appointments were very short. I consider myself extremely lucky.
@OzParent
When I lived in NSW my dealings with the US consulate in Sydney were always pleasant. That was many years ago but I wouldn’t expect it to be any different now. Good luck!
@Shunrata
Yes the Australian Tax Office is so friendly and civil isn’t it. Such a massive contrast to the IRS in every respect.
Not sure about contact info sharing. I think Pacifica has administrator privileges, if she reads this she has my permission to forward you my email address.
Councils tend to be quite informal about citizenship ceremonies. You just walk in and sit down to watch the event, no one asks who you are or why you’re there from my experience. Long ago at mine, the info I was given said not to invite more than ten guests as I recall. Instead more than two dozen of my friends showed up to watch anyway; no one even noticed or cared. Back then they made a big production of these events. Each guest was given a small Australian flag to wave, there were several musical performances and there was a huge buffet spread for everyone afterward. Didn’t try the food myself since our friends dragged us straight off to a restaurant across the street for a lavish celebration dinner. My partner’s ceremony later that year was similar but it finished up with a lengthy native dance performance by a Wurundjeri Aboriginal troupe. Yet I’ve attended more recent ones where there was no entertainment, nothing got served, and the whole affair was rather dry and uneventful. All depends on which council you are in I suppose. Very much worthy of a celebration, regardless.
Like you, I’ve a somewhat busy schedule. Despite getting old I still work long hours, am also on call 24/7 to fix IT problems while having a variety of other commitments. Yet it could be quite good fun to catch up one day, our schedules permitting of course. Distance permitting too, since you could live 40 kilometres away in various directions and still be in the greater suburban area. Feel so glad you weren’t offended at the suggestion. Cheers.
Don’t know where to post this, don’t know if there is any significance, so FWIW…
My Canadian-only, Canadian-born husband crossed the border by car yesterday. While in possession of his Canadian passport, with a Canadian birthplace, the CBP agent asked for his country of origin. He is a white, middle-aged male. He crosses at least twice weekly in the summer, every year, for recreational purposes. I received a CLN dated June. Coincidence?
@The Mom
A totally off-the-wall question like that is enough to make you paranoid, isn’t it? Why would a CBT agent ask for someone’s country of origin when that someone’s birthplace of Canada is stated on the passport? I wouldn’t worry unless it happens again, but then it may have more to do with the frequency your husband crosses over the border than your CLN.
@WhatAmI
On the subject of the items mentioned in your “curveball” post…
I have always held that rules must be prospective (ie: “going forward”) as it would be an injustice otherwise and could in fact constitute entrapment to allow a law to be retroactive…(since an individual cannot act in good faith if the foundation upon which he operates is changed after the fact)…
How can “actions taken before” have any basis of law?
In response to the above I refer you to none other than the Constitution of the United States…
This is from the “Constitution of the United States”
Article 1
Section. 9.
The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
I can’t see how the US can impose Retroactive Restoration of US Citizenship unilaterally based on rule changes in 1986…did someone forget “No EX POST FACTO Law shall be passed”…
@TheMom, more like he just wasn’t paying attention. We had a similar and funny incident a few years ago when we travelled by car from Switzerland back to the UK for a visit. Pulled up at passport control in our Swiss registered car and hubbie handed over the passports, being the one nearest the window.
So passport guy said, “I see your passport was issued in Geneva. Why is that?”
Hubbie: “Because I live in Switzerland.”
Passport guy, puzzled: “So why are you driving a right-hand drive car?”
Hubbie: “I’m not.”
It was only then that the guy realised that hubbie had the steering wheel in front of him and it wasn’t in front of me where it would have been on a UK car. We all had a good laugh about it before went on to check in for the ferry.
@Benedict Arnold be me
I couldn’t believe it when I first heard (from Roy Berg at a free seminar) that the US retroactively made people US citizens. I can rationalize it more or less now as follows:
Americans think having US citizenship is a good thing. The Supreme court found it unconstitutional to strip a USC of their citizenship without the consent of the individual, even if they have performed expatriating acts. Being unconstitutional, the laws were therefore changed retroactively from assuming intent to relinquish USC to assuming intent to retain USC.
If you in fact did intend to relinquish, you can “simply” apply for a free CLN and state your intention and demonstrate that you stopped using the benefits of USC (passports, consular help, etc).
I hadn’t heard of ex post facto until somebody mentioned it in a post here recently. Their explanation was that laws could not be passed that did harm to people retroactively. I interpret this, as for example, passing a law to ban handguns and then arresting everybody who owns a registered handgun.
The problem is with the IRS. To plug the loophole that I posted last week with the IRS quote where you could take on foreign citizenship and stop paying taxes, but continue using your USC as in renewing your US passport, and then apply for a CLN decades later. I think the IRS ignores (or would like to ignore?) the effective date of the CLN and considers your tax obligation to be up to the date you applied for the CLN.
Of course, this IRS practice does people harm by declaring them delinquent in taxes and FBARs.
Most everyone here sees USC as having become a bad thing. I doubt the Supreme Court or Congress ever considered that they were doing harm to anyone by upholding the constitution.
Do we have a definitive answer to this question:
Does a person who renounces as a non-covered expat have any problem entering the US with their Canadian passport and CLN?
I have a mother and a friend who both have as their only reason _not_ to renounce is this fear of such problems.
@ WhatAmI
To my knowledge, no one has reported to Brock or Maple Sandbox any border problems entering the US after renouncing/relinquishing. And although you’re supposed to have a copy of your CLN with you — and I certainly would — I don’t think anyone’s reported being asked to show it. BTW, the information that a person expatriated is in a database that DHS/CBP has access to at ports of entry.
Schubert started a thread on this issue at Maple Sandbox for people to post their post-expatriation crossing experiences.
http://maplesandbox.ca/2012/crossing-the-us-border-on-a-canadian-passport-showing-a-us-birthplace/
Not definitive no. Technically and legally, there should be no problems with entering on a Canadian passport and CLN. But if you get a bolshi border guard then you could be delayed while he/she/they make whatever enquiries they think are necessary. It might only take 5 minutes, but there have been some reports of up to an hour in detention without being able to communicate to friends/family why you’ve been delayed. Border control seems to be a law unto itself regarding this, most people have no problems whatsoever, but a 100% problem free record it ain’t.
Yes, there is always that possibility. Also, of course, no way of knowing how this matter will be handled at the border in the future as the US seems to be getting weirder and more vindictive.
I’m not aware of the reports you mention, and it would be good to know more. I don’t know if you learned of this through conversation or saw it posted — if posted, do you have a link? And do you know at which port/s of entry they occurred?
@WhatAmI,
We have no evidence of any problem for a non-covered expat having a problem entering the US with their Canadian (or other country) passport and their CLN. There is no reason that such a person should have any different experience crossing than any other “Canadian-only” person. If that is the case, there will be repercussions.
Since we don’t know other details for your mother and friend, their places of birth shown on their Canadian passport, etc., we don’t know if their problems in not doing so would be much more (FATCA bank ‘US indicia’ info, up-to-date US tax return and FBAR filings, etc.) than not renouncing / doing nothing. No one can predict with accuracy. They can read the experiences of others who have renounced and follow threads here. Being as informed as they can be (and not depending on a single person to give them “the answer”) to make their own decisions is their best defensive action. Doing nothing is acceptable for some; for others not.
or, (NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT, just an FYI)
This just came into my email, likely $100 well spent for the person who may be able to ask this lawyer questions in a webinar:
http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b343af01b0c3e75921e909c4d&id=1260a20c4d&e=41c124a90f. Phil Hodgen does emphasize another recent conversation topic:
etc.