Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Thanks and sorry hearing about all your problems and surely the stress to go with it Norman but it was a bit complicated for my mind to understand but hope you get it or have got it al sorted.
If you’ve read horror stories about cases of identity theft taking months to solve, that’s because government employees weren’t involved. Mine’s more than 15 years and not solved yet.
Yes I know about stress. So does the US government. When Diane L. Kroupa[*] was sentenced for tax evasion, lawyers presented a list of medications she was taking for stress, in an attempt to gain leniency. Imagine what it’s like for innocent people. I had heart surgery in 2013. If I understand correctly, Brock participant Dr. Marcus Marcio Pinheiro died from it.
[* Google her name to see what her profession was. It’ll be more satisfying to do that than for me to tell you.]
hello guys
something interesting
after getting my CLN last march ,i opened an account and they took my CLN but sent me a W8 ben form to fill in,i asked them”why ? this is for us revenues or income for non us persons,,they told me “it’s just another document to show you’re a non us person”,they did not make fill out any us tax number or italian tax number…
I will ask them ,why don’t you have to fill out a W8 ben form then ,why do i,i’m not a us person anymore?
So every single person worldwide should fill a W8 ben form then?
it makes no sense.
@Patrick, Anyone who had a US connection needs to fill in a W8-BEN form. I do one every 3 years for my PostFinance account.
@Patrick
As ridiculous as it sounds, in theory every bank in the world (or at least in those countries with a FATCA IGA) could ask its customers for W8s to
proveclaim their non-US-person status. The forms are kept by the bank, not submitted to the IRS. Using the W8 form isn’t necessary, but plenty of banks make customers sign it because it’s easier than coming up with their own form for self-certification.Patrick – I agree with you. After I renounced I went looking for an account forbwhich signing a flippin’ US tax form was not in the t&c. I didn’t have much trouble finding one.
When I had my CLN, I wrote to the only financial institution (UK) which had asked me to earlier confirm US citizenship, enclosing a copy of said CLN. They confirmed removal of the US marker and didn’t ask me to fill in any form.
I did successfully refuse to sign a W8 on the grounds that the FI in question had no business asking me to sign a US government tax form if it had nothing to do with US tax withholding. They accepted a “verbal” (e-mail) declaration that I wasn’t a US person, and later had me sign a customer info form with the US citizen box unchecked.
It is a bad thing, asking non-US customers to sign W8s purely for FATCA purposes, but some banks still do it. Presumably out of laziness and/or overabundance of caution, because it’s not required by any IGA. Though the W8 supposedly won’t ever leave the bank, I’d still feel marginally more comfortable signing an untrue bank form than an untrue US government form.
Nononymous:
“it’s not required by any IGA. ”
No – it’s required for setting the withholding rate on any US-source income, amirite?
They’ve presumably got their system set up to withhold at the appropriate rate according to the accountholder’s status in the IRS sector of the multiverse. And to get a W form for their files.
Actually the Swiss IGA does specify W-8 or similar.
“(1) a self-certification that the Account Holder is neither a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. resident for tax purposes (which may be on an IRS Form W-8 or other similar agreed form);”
https://www.admin.ch/ch/d/gg/pc/documents/2330/FATCA-Implementation_Agreement_en.pdf
Since the form already exists it’s probably easier for the banks to use that than design their own forms.
Yes, W8 and W9 forms exist to set withholding rates on US income, from investments or employment, is my understanding. They are not submitted to the IRS, but kept on file. They have been misused by FIs as declarations of US-personhood (or not). In Canada it seems to have stopped, the banks all have their own FATCA/CRS forms now.
It’s especially nice when IRS forms are used by banks in countries where English is not an official language. That’s really going the extra mile to serve your customers…
Medea Fleecestealer:
“Since the form already exists it’s probably easier for the banks to use that than design their own forms.”
They do have to change the US-income withholding rate when citizenship status changes. I expect some banks just feel more comfortable having a W-8 on file before they stop withholding US tax on payments of US-source income.
That’s just my speculation though. All I know is, I am not going to sign a US tax form. And didn’t have any trouble not doing so, so all’s well, for me.
Since W-8 declares that the person is not a US person and (to the best of my recollection) W-9 declares that the person is a US person, it doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable for a bank to act on the declaration of being or not being a US person.
The US does want all financial institutions to demand one or the other from all customers, worldwide. This is why we need reciprocity. US banks should demand 190 forms from their customers. Any US bank with any recalcitrant customer should be subject to 190 x 30% withholding of their gross revenues.
Financial institutions that entered into Qualified Intermediary contracts demanded one or the other from all customers years before FATCA came into being. And at least one of them took US withholding from Canadian sourced interest.
“ it doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable for a bank to act on the declaration of being or not being a US person.”
It doesn’t seem unreasonable for an accountholder not to be remotely interested in signing a form for a bank’s convenience, if there’s a bank down the road they can go to instead.
Yes, as we’ve said before, banks can and do use the W9 or W8 form as a declaration of US personhood or non-personhood for FATCA reporting, even if that was not their original purpose. In my view it’s better if banks create their own forms, because (a) English may not be an official language of the country in question and (b) one should not be asked to sign US government form to claim that one is not a US person, on principle, even if the US government never sees the form.
The US wants information about all US persons with accounts outside the US, which isn’t quite the same thing as wanting “all financial institutions to demand one or the other [W8 or W9 forms] from all customers, worldwide” – particularly as the forms are kept by the bank, not submitted to the IRS.
With the new FATCA/CRS forms in Canada, one simply lists all countries of tax residency (Canada, US and other). One does not check “no” next to each of the 190-ish countries one is not a tax resident of. Were the US to reciprocate, that is presumably the approach they would take.
My UK passport only shows the name of the town in which I was born, which, although in the USA, isn’t an obvious US geographical name. Although I’m no longer a US citizen, if I do have to open a new bank account or other financial instrument, I might just show my UK passport and pretend that my birthplace was not the USA. Just to avoid all the bother.
I encountered no bother. I just chose to go to a bank that offered an account on terms that were acceptable to me.
Hi guys! I want to renounce Asap (accidental American). My question now is: can I renounce and after the ceremony at the mission do my streamline paperwork? Or do i have to be compliant BEFORE making an appointment?
“do i have to be compliant BEFORE making an appointment?”
No. It’s not necessary to fill in any US tax forms to renounce US citizenship. It’s your right to renounce, and it doesn’t depend on taxes.
Make the appointment, gather the required documentation, keep the appointment, pay the fee, swear the oath of renunciation. That’s all you need to do.
A few weeks later, you receive the CLN.
@pauly
No you don’t have to be compliant before you renounce. The Embassy or the renunciation forms do not ask any tax related questions.
Just do not mention tax as a reason for renouncing.
Many renounce and do nothing more, no back filing. If you renounce this year and decide to bring your filing up to date, you will have until June 2019 to file, if you renounce in 2019, you will have until June 2020.
There is no need whatsoever to do any tax filing merely because you’re renouncing US citizenship.
As soon as you swear the oath, you’re no longer a US citizen. That’s it, the problem is over.
Thx @all for your very quick answers. Not filing after renouncing is no option for me. I want to end this completely and correct for freedom in my head. Finding out that i have to report even that i Never lived in the us an always payed taxes in my home country (way higher then in the us) already stole me nights an nerves. I want this nightmare to end 100% properly.
If you want to file US tax returns, that’s your right. But it certainly isn’t legally required in order to lose US citizenship. It’s important not to perpetuate the fear and misinformation that is put about by the US tax advice industry.
Do what makes you happy. 🙂