Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
PS Kabby
When I have to remember dates, I try to equate them with personal or news events and where I was at the time, ie a president being elected, a friend or relatives child being born and their age now. Someones wedding, etc.
Hope it helps!
@Kabby
“OMG what if some part of the the form I am completing is worng as the date s maybe way out not just months but years and what are the consequences”
So? What are the consequences? None. You have a constitutional right to renounce.
“30 years ago, how would you have transfered that 8GB of data from Japan to the US?”
100 reels of magnetic tape.
““30 years ago, how would you have transfered that 8GB of data from Japan to the US?”
100 reels of magnetic tape.“
Like I said, the tech did not exist to the extent needed for FATCA to work. It is a brave new world.
“You have a constitutional right to renounce.”
As FATCA and FBAR violate a list of constitutional rights, that is not very reassuring.
Nononymous:
Indeed. And what’s more, renouncing US citizenship in accordance with US law makes you no longer a US citizen in the eyes of your government and the banks. Just as soon as you’ve sworn the oath of renunciation. Swearing the oath is a “relinquishing act”, and as it’s sworn before a US consular officer, and you’ve actually paid to be able to do it, there is no question about either the fact that the relinquishing act was performed, nor about your intention to lose US citizenship. No worries! 🙂
I hope you’ll post the good news here when you’ve done the deed!
@japanT
Constitutional rights apply to US citizens. Once the oath is sworn, one is no longer a US citizen.
@JapaT
Is *anything* reassuring?
The gloom, always the gloom. If Eeyore spent all day reading conspiracy sites, he’d produce the same sort of posts.
@nony
Wish we could find JapanT another citizenship!
@Kabby,
Everyone is right. Don’t sweat the time period. They do not check. They only check that you are indeed a US citizen and I presume if you are a wanted person.
Heidi has a good idea about trying to remember some facts around the event. I knew I came to UK to attend university so I know when I attended university so had an idea of the dates.
You have a right to renounce and approximate dates will be fine. Just get the facts about your other citizenship correct, date naturalised etc and remember the USA date format, month-day-year MM/DD/YYYY. In the UK we write day first, then month, year and I had to check my forms several times to make sure I wrote all the dates in the correct format because I am so used to writing dates in the UK format.
@Nonoymous, Plaxy, Heidi, UK Rose, Thansk for the information about once you have sworn the oath you are no longer a US citizen regarding the dates on the periods of residence form but my worry was if the date was not corrrect and if they check these sorts of things for accuracy between the time you submit your application to renounce and the time they call you for the intterview and renunciation. They must do something in that period. as UK rose says they check for back ground checks I am sur, which is fine but maybe they also check flight records or border and customs to see when the person last left and if that is the case I cannot find the date or even year. I will just have to do as Heidi and everyone say and approximate it. Plaxy of course I will let everyone know on prgress. I just have to have the courage to send the forms off to the enbassy and press send! Of course I have reservations as l feel like I am giving up something but for the long term I cannot deal with all the stress having US citizenship when one does not live in the US.
I very much doubt they take time to check anything like that. The Embassy isn’t trying to trip you up. I actually found them very friendly and helpful.
Kabby – “my worry was if the date was not corrrect and if they check these sorts of things for accuracy between the time you submit your application to renounce and the time they call you for the intterview and renunciation. ”
They wouldn’t be checking up for accuracy. It’s not like the IRS. I don’t know what they want the dates for, but they’re not trying to trick you or catch you out. It’s much more likely just a result of trying to make one form serve more than one purpose.
This questionnaire is apparently a substitute for the DS-4079, presumably used in countries where the intrusive DS-4079 form might be considered of dubious legality. And the DoS manual says if the DS-4079,
“The DS-4079 is not standard in a renunciation but may be useful if needed for information gathering or to address questions regarding intent.” (https://fam.state.gov/FAM/07FAM/07FAM1260.html)
I should think that remark applies equaly to the questionnaire – it’s not actually useful or likely to be useful, for a renunciation (as opposed to a relinquishment; they just get everybody to fill in the form in case it might be. Covering their backs.
I look forward to reading your feedback. 🙂
Correction:
“the DoS manual says of the DS-4079″
@Kabby
I will speak bluntly. You are imagining dangers that do not exist. Therefore at a certain point there is no further practical advice to give. It may not be psychologically possible for you to renounce without suffering great anxiety. In which case your options are to suffer, to pour yourself a stiff drink (or pharmaceutical equivalent) or to not renounce.
@Kabby
If you want peace of mind sooner rather than later then you should try to get an appointment before the end of this year. That would mean your last tax filings for 2018 will be due by June 2019, otherwise if you wait to renounce until next year, your tax filing for part of 2019 will be hanging over your head until June 2020.
If Kabby even decides to file…
I’ve renounced without filing anything. My entire adult life has been outside of the USA. They have no legal nor moral right to know anything about a life which has been lived outside of that country’s borders.
Birdperson – I agree. And filing UK taxes only (or more likely not needing to file) is the normal thing to do, for a UK- resident UK citizen with UK-only income.
And to be fair, the US has never shown any sign of wanting me to file US tax returns – never so much as mentioned tax to me, and not for lack of opportunity.
I thought Kabby had said he/she had been filing but I’m not sure now…. this conversation has gone on for so long:-)
Peace of mind comes from understanding that the IRS isn’t after you and you don’t need to placate them with forms. IMO.
Generic “you” of course
Heidi – “I thought Kabby had said he/she had been filing but I’m not sure now…. ”
There’s no need to file after renouncing though, if all income is UK-source.
“this conversation has gone on for so long:-)”
Very true. Mea culpa. I’ll be quiet. 🙂
@plaxy
Re final filings
If you have come so far, then why not be a good boy and finish the job? There is 8854 of course if one does not want to be covered and wants peace of mind.
“a good boy”???!
Tongue in cheek, no doubt, but the IRS’s tendency to address citizens as naughty misbehaving “wilful” children is pernicious and revolting. Ignore it, is my advice.
The IRS tries to infantilise the citizenry to manipulate behaviour. An old, old tactic. It’s unlikely to be in the former citizen’s interest to put up with being talked to as if they were seven years old.
@placy
“A good boy”
Bien sur, just being facetious in a British sort of way!
The US do tend to scare its citizenry in this way.