Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
“A person who wasn’t born in the US, who doesn’t consider himself/herself to be a US citizen and doesn’t use or want to use any USC benefits or receive any US income, is indistinguishable from an individual who is not a US citizen and never has been.”
Not a universal truth. My children are obviously not 100% asian and are suspect even without FATCA.
@kabby
Please heed birdpersons advice re dates and Moodys. Embassy staff have assured others in your position that it is not important, you can approximate your dates of residency. As I have said before, to put your mind at rest email the embassy and tell them you are unsure of dates. They will advise you .
Relax, renunciation is really ‘simples’.
This idea that US citizens have to pay up or lie, really needs to be resisted.
If you (generic you) are a law-abiding citizen of another country, you can tell the truth and shame the devil. It’s not necessary to pretend to be something you’re not. If a USC and want to keep being one, you can say so, and accept the FATCA reporting. If you’re a USC and don’t want to be, you can renounce, if you can pay the fee.
USCs who don’t want to be USCs and can’t afford to renounce are in a difficult situation. Fingers crossed the legal actions succeed and bring about change.
@BirdPersson, Hedi, Plaxy. Yes Moddys were wanting me to sign them up and they did frighten me. I am not even sure of the year so will just put approx in front of the year and hope they dont check it and get my application rejected or be told I lied. Plaxy that was my worry. I wil e mail embassy and ask them what to do, as Heid advises maybe. Thanks everyone.
“If a USC and want to keep being one, you can say so, and accept the FATCA reporting.”
Ignoring of course, passport revocation.
To accept that our rights are being taken away is unAmerican.
“hope they dont check it and get my application rejected or be told I lied. ”
That wouldn’t happen. You have a right to renounce, and it’s not conditional on being able to remember dates. Putting “approx” or “est” shows you’re not deliberately lying.
@Duchesse
Canadian banks, as you know, ask the question about other tax residency or citizenship (depending on the wording of the form) but only require self-certification – i.e. they don’t generally attempt to validate answers – and do not ask about place of birth.
So even if one is born in the US, one is perfectly free to follow one’s conscience as far as whether one considers one’s self to (still) be a US citizen.
That is the situation in Canada. In other countries they look at place of birth, which makes life more difficult for anyone born in the US, but not for anyone like your sons with a non-US passport and birthplace.
@Kabby
You are overthinking this. Just relax. And stay the hell away from Moody’s – expensive carrion foul.
@Kabby
You are allowed to attach a statement to your renunciation document. So, if it would put your mind at ease, why not submit a letter stating that you’ve approximated the dates you’ve been in the USA, and if the State Department needs more information they can contact you? Put the ball in their court.
I very much doubt you’ll hear anything…
Kabby. You are not listening. Residence doesn’t mean visiting.
Moody’s are well known here. They appear to be in the business of helping themselves to make lots of money at the expense of people they frighten into doing far more than necessary. Don’t believe someone just because they advertise on the internet and because they charge healthy fees.
Nononymous:
“In other countries they look at place of birth, which makes life more difficult for anyone born in the US, but not for anyone like your sons with a non-US passport and birthplace.”
The IGA Model 1 does require FIs to treat “an unambiguous US place of birth” as requiring reporting. It would be interesting to know whether that requirement has been left out of Canada’s implementing legislation, or is in the legislation but not enforced.
This could have implications for possible “fixes”, if the anti-IGA actions succeed. If IGA1 countries adopt no-birthplace-question and incorporate that into their legislation (as a clear statement of policy, not as an omission), USCs would gain legal protection from being asked the question.
@Kabby
The only dates that are entered on your CLN are the dates month/yr you started living in the US and the date you finally left their soil permanently. You will need your Naturalisation cert (if you Naturalized).
The other times ( if any) refer only to your permanent residence in the US. They seem to be less important and may have something to do with checking criminal records but I really don’t know why they ask this.
Whatever, the embassy staff have assured others in the past that approx dates are fine. They cannot refuse your renunciation unless they think you have been coerced or that you are not of sound mind or you are unable to understand .
@plaxy
I’d have to dig into the IGA, a project for a rainy day. An “unambiguous US place of birth” is indeed considered US indicia (with the usual exception for diplomatic spawn) but of course that information was not and still is not something typically recorded on account opening, or asked as part of FATCA follow-up for existing accounts. It would appear that Canadian FIs are only required to enquire about citizenship and/or tax residency, not birthplace, but we’d need to confirm that.
If a customer volunteers that they were born in the US, a “helpful” bank employee might tell them that they are a US citizen and sign them up for FATCA, but that’s a different matter.
Nononymous – yes, it’s not significant if Canadian FIs report accountholders who are known to be USCs. What would be interesting is what the legislation says or doesn’t say about the FIs’ duty to find out.
Because if the Canadian legislation doesn’t bind banks to find out, and the US has tolerated that without punishing the banks, all IGA1 countries can and should amend their legislation to stop banks from asking about nationality. They should ask about tax-residence, as they do for CRS. And then a non-filing accountholder can simply say truthfully that they’re tax-resident only in Canada.
Nononymous, whether US indica is asked for depends on the country. It certainly is here in Switzerland when you try and open a bank account.
@ Kabby
Please, please don’t feed the condors! I know you’re in the UK so you might not know the tune “Snowbird” but maybe the words below will help to break your stress a bit. I actually wrote this ages ago with M & G in mind and our capitulating Canadian MPs too. All will be well. You will sail through your renunciation far easier than you think.
Condor — sung to the tune of “Snowbird”
Beneath the FATCA mantle cold and mean
The condor lies awaiting
For new clients to be seen
The condor sings the song he always sings
And speaks to them of taxes
And the penalties they bring
When we were young
Our minds were young then too
Anything our MPs told us
That’s the thing that we would do
But now we see such emptiness within
And the thing that we want most in life
Is challenge them and win
Spread your condor wings and fly away
And take that FATCA with you
Where it came from one dark day
MPs who once we trusted were untrue
And if they could, we think that they should
Fly away with you
Good sense within our reason seems to say
That he’ll try to break our spirits down
Should he decide to stay
So U.S. condor
We encourage you go
To that land across the border
Where bad legislation grows
Spread your condor wings and fly away
And take that FATCA with you
Where it came from one dark day
MPs who once we trusted were untrue
And if they could, we think that they should
Fly away with you
Yeah, if they could, we think that they should
Fl-y-y-y-y away with you
@Medea
Yes of course. We were specifically discussing Canada. I know the situation is vastly worse in Europe and elsewhere, in countries where birthplace is on national ID and or requested.
Via the Facebook group I’ve heard that ING in Germany is now chasing down existing customers with US indicia and demanding W9s. When I opened my account with them 5 years ago I gave my citizenship as Canadian, and was not asked any questions about birthplace. As part of the application process – it’s an online-only bank – I had to attend a little ID-validation ceremony at the post office. I showed them my Canadian passport with US birthplace. Nobody questioned it and to this day I’ve not been asked about US citizenship.
Yeah, seems to vary greatly, not only between countries, but between banks. Here in Switzerland obviously they got on board with it early on. UK we only got chased about it by Barclays Bank late 2016/early 2017 and had to do paperwork. I’m still waiting to hear from NatWest, they’ve never sent me anything about it – but then maybe they don’t know I was an American. Account was opened way back in the 70s so no idea what info, if any, I provided then. I’m certainly not going to query it with them.
Nononymous:
“When I opened my account with them 5 years ago I gave my citizenship as Canadian, and was not asked any questions about birthplace”
Five years ago, I wouldn’t have been asked about birthplace either. The UK IGA implementing legislation didn’t come into force until 2015. I don’t know the equivalent date for Germany.
I haven’t heard of any IGA1 country (other than Canada where the nationality question doesn’t get asked. It would be interesting to hear if that happens elsewhere.
Medea :
“UK we only got chased about it by Barclays Bank late 2016/early 2017 and had to do paperwork. I’m still waiting to hear from NatWest, they’ve never sent me anything about it – but then maybe they don’t know I was an American. Account was opened way back in the 70s so no idea what info, if any, I provided then.”
All my pre-existing accounts never had my birthplace on file (no reason to) and were fine until CRS was implemented and the UK drew up overall AEOI guidance so that banks could cover all the regimes (FATCA, DAC-CRS, CDOT, etc) in a single question series. That led to trouble with one bank, but by then I had renounced, so it was the bank that got the trouble, not me.
Yeah, suspect it’s the same for me plaxy. Still, you’d have thought the bank would make enquiries just in case, if they have no info at all on birthplace.
Medea – the guidance specifically says they don’t have to. They can rely on the information they’ve got on their records.
And if they’re not required by law to ask the question, they have no right to ask the question. Perhaps Barclays already had your place of birth on file?
Quite likely. The Barclays account was my husband’s and I was added to it when we got married in 1991. So a 15-20 year gap between the two accounts. May well have provided my American passport to Barclays at the time.
@plaxy
Minor point of clarification: Canadian banks do ask about nationality (and/or tax residency) but they do not ask about birthplace. Subtle but important difference if you are a US-born liar.
Oh, ok. I had misunderstood – thought they asked only about tax-residence.