Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Duchesse
I lie to banks and I’ve told my daughter to do the same. (She was born outside both US and Canada but birth registered with consulate because I didn’t know any better.) This is something I absolutely don’t have a problem with as a parent – it’s practical advice, not a moral or ethical test. Of course neither she nor I are compliant with US tax filings.
We have had the chat, now that she is legally of age. I apologized for having registered her back in the day, and have offered to pay the fee to renounce if that is ever her decision. Otherwise she’s been advised to keep it all a deep dark secret. I expect she will have no problems, ever. She’s done plenty of travel to the US with and without parents (sports teams) on a Canadian passport and there’s never been any questions asked.
PS And all that travel to the US with parents was me on a Canadian passport with US birthplace – no questions asked. (The only time I was hassled was on a business trip.)
PPS Her ironclad excuse, if ever challenged, is that I never told her that she was a US citizen, or registered her birth with a US consulate. She has no idea. Just a Canadian, born in Europe but raised in Canada, with a Canadian passport.
@Plaxy
Re wife
I thought you were talking about SamieB, not Formerpatriot !
@Duchesse and Nononymous
My son is a dual born in the US but his British passport city/place of birth can be interpreted as a UK city (thanks to those unimaginative first settlers). He lives in the EU and when asked, he always insists to banks that his place of birth is the British one.
Corrected version (oh do we need an edit feature):
PPS Her ironclad excuse, if ever challenged, is that I never told her that she was a US citizen, or that I had registered her birth with a US consulate. She has no idea – she was a baby at the time. All she knows is that she’s a Canadian, born in Europe but raised in Canada, with a Canadian passport.
Heidi: 🙂
“UK law doesn’t in anyway require UK residents and citizens to file US tax returns – and couldn’t.”
The UK’s ratification of the savings clause made it UK law. The world except for the US needs the UK to establish an ADUKS and sue the Queen.
‘@[not me] and [not me],
What the hell is wrong with you?
I am unchecking that “Notify me” box and I’m out of here for good.’
Eh? I thought I was the one who’s supposed to get that kind of question.
@ pacifica777:
1. I obtained citizenship for my sons when they were 16 ( twins) with their consent, and years before all this mess. They were issued certs of birth abroad and SSNs.
2. They then got passports, which they used to enter US, and at legal age, voted, once, and filed tax returns.
Therefore it seems relinquishment would not be granted under DOS criteria.
If I had only known…
@ Duchesse,
I don’t think I understand.
What I’m not clear on is did they already perform one of the potentially relinquishing acts set out Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a))?
And if so, did they get/renew/use passports, vote, etc. before or after that date? If the acts consistent with US citizenship only occurred before the performing the potentially relinquishing act, it would not count against a relinquishment.
But in any event, having a non-US birthplace they’re in a good position for dealing with FIs even without renouncing/relinquishing.
“The UK’s ratification of the savings clause made it UK law. ”
Nope.
Renouncing USCs who have no US income and aren’t filing US tax returns have no need to ever even hear of the existence of such a thing as a double taxation treaty or a saving clause.
Make an appointment with the US Embassy, gather the required documentation, keep the appointment, pay the fee, swear the oath, and you’re done. Hallelujah! 🙂
“But in any event, having a non-US birthplace they’re in a good position for dealing with FIs even without renouncing/relinquishing.”
And the non-US birthplace makes them non-risky, assuming there are no other US indicators.
A person who wasn’t born in the US, who doesn’t consider himself/herself to be a US citizen and doesn’t use or want to use any USC benefits or receive any US income, is indistinguishable from an individual who is not a US citizen and never has been.
@FormerPatriot
I have taken the trouble to read your former posts
As you are someone who wants to do things ‘by the book’, I hope that you have formerly surrendered your green card as per US regulations otherwise you would still be tied to US tax reporting requirements.
https://www.uscis.gov/i-407
I wish you well.
To elaborate on this point a little bit, taking the IGA as an example of an international treaty which really did result in certain provisions of US tax law being implemented as UK law (and Canadian law, and French law, and German law, etc).
Signing the IGA didn’t make that happen. Legislation had to be drafted, transposing the terms agreed to under the IGA by the UK government into a bill to be brought before Parliament for consideration and possible debate and vote. That’s the bit that turns US law, modified by treaty, into UK law. And that’s what imposes on UK FIs the obligation to identify and report USC accountholders.
The double taxation treaty is different. It’s just a bilateral treaty – an agreement between two States as to how overlapping or underlapping cross-border tax laws will be resolved, i.e. when and under what circumstances each treaty partner will tax or not tax. The treaty binds the two States, but does not impose any obligations on taxpayers. A taxpayer can simply report income to the tax agency of each country they’re filing returns to, claiming available exemptions and/or FTCs, in accordance with the laws of that country.
I suspect there might be fewer UK renunciations if more UKC USCs understood that neither the US or the the UK is trying to force them to pay US tax on non-US income. Dual US/UK citizenship is valuable, now as ever, to UKC USCs who wish to maintain links with the “old country.” No need to give it up if it’s not causing bank problems and you’re willing to accept the reporting.
No need for fear.
“But in any event, having a non-US birthplace they’re in a good position for dealing with FIs even without renouncing/relinquishing.”
And the non-US birthplace makes them non-risky, assuming there are no other US indicators.”
Oh, if only! Canadian FIs (the big banks, not a small credit union) have added an item to account application forms: you must to state whether you are subject to “other tax jurisdictions”.
I said:
“I suspect there might be fewer UK renunciations if more UKC USCs understood that neither the US or the the UK is trying to force them to pay US tax on non-US income.”
For example: a UK-resident UKC USC who gets paid and taxed via PAYE and has no foreign income, generally doesn’t need to file a tax return in either the US or the UK.
There is no need to file a US tax return in order to claim report a stocks-and-shares ISA to the IRS as a PFIC, thus wrecking one’s plans to save for a deposit or accumulate a pension.
Duchesse:
“Oh, if only! Canadian FIs (the big banks, not a small credit union) have added an item to account application forms: you must to state whether you are subject to “other tax jurisdictions”.”
It’s the same here in the UK. The correct and completely truthful answer, for an applicant who doesn’t have a US birthplace and doesn’t consider themselves US and doesn’t claim to be a US citizen, is no.
It’s just that those with a US birthplace have to prove their non-USness with a CLN.
@Heidi & others. Just found a company called Moodys Gartner (A Canadian firm) on google search as asked and e mailed them the quesiton about the dates of residenceon the “loss of citizenship ” form I was teling you about a few days ago about me not knowing when I was resident in the US asking if it was needed and checked. Their reply was “The short answer is “yes” US Customs and Border Protection has record of individuals entering and departing the US. All the border crossing information for US citizens is also tracked as well and available under FOIA” I am not going to use them as there fees were extorninate but it now worries me that if I put the wrong dates on the periods of residence questionaire that the embassy or whoever checks the questioaire for accuracy of resiednce dates or the State Dept when the package is sent there for the CLN that if my dates a not correct it could caue me major problems? I am teterring on the edge of a breakdown with all this this stress. US Citizenship is not worth all this worry.
Kabby:
“it now worries me that if I put the wrong dates on the periods of residence questionaire that the embassy or whoever checks the questioaire for accuracy of resiednce dates or the State Dept when the package is sent there for the CLN that if my dates a not correct it could caue me major problems?”
Such as?
@ plaxy: Here we differ. They •do• consider themselves to be USCs: they carry US PPTs, have voted, filed US tax, the whole enchilada. They are aware of how to handle banking, and what they’ll have to do should they build assets.
They know that their data will be transparent to the IRS and their response is “yeah, right”, because they are totally disabused of the concept of privacy. They are not naive, quite the opposite.
@plaxy
“I know nothing about Japan and very little about the IGA Model 2, and have no interest in knowing about either.”
That sounds like a homelander’s comment. You should know better and should be ashamed of yourself. As you do not care I am going to asume that the following is unknown to you for it would speak ill of you if you held that attitude iwhile being aware of the mobile nature of people who may stop by IBS for information.
During the more than 30 years between my first time to Japan and the present I have studied with or had personal or professional relationships with people from many countries including not only Asian countries such as Korea, China, Singapore, Thailand, Taiwan, Indonesia, Burma, Malaysia but also many from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Mexico, Great Britain, Scotland, Sweden, Germany, France, Spain, Ireland, Russia, Belgium, Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria and India. Many of these were not originally from the countries they left from to come to Japan. For example, one Canadian was originally from Hong Kong. Canada allowed his family to settle there when G. B. did not before the reversion. Luckily, his family could afford the million dollar price tag. A few had a USC parent. Some a USC spouse or children.
As you can not know what countries visitors to IBS may wish to study or live in, leaving out information on type two countries would leave new visitors to IBS with the impression that there are not two types of IGAs. This would naturally lead many to believe that what is true in their type 1 IGA country is also true in a type 2 IGA country that they may reside in sometime in the future. Unless they dig deep through a couple of years of threads and posts how would they know otherwise if those of us in Type 2 IGA countries sounded off? That is why I keep bring these issues up.
Kabby
I renounced in early September. I only put down my main dates of residence in the USA. I did NOT include any visits back (which have been numerous) as I considered those as visits, not residence. And I didn’t know my exact dates of residence, so I put down ‘approx’ in the boxes as well.
I very much doubt that the State Department has the time or any interest in checking up any dates. When they look at your file for your CLN, my understanding is that they’re simply checking that you have indeed lost your US citizenship (which is a straightforward ‘yes’ if you’ve renounced) and that you aren’t a wanted criminal anywhere.
Please don’t talk to firms like Moody’s, whose only desire is to frighten you into spending lots of money on their fees. You don’t need them.
By the way, the staff at the London Embassy were very kind to me at my renunciation appointment. The whole process was handled professionally and compassionately.
@plaxy
I’m with Former Patriot on this. It is not decades and decades and decades ago. Decades ago we did not have a World Wide Web that was accessable to anyone who can pay the cost to use an internet cafe. Decades ago, the BIG Personal computer was the Comadore 64 with a whooping 64 K memory. Decades ago the technology required to IMPLEMENT FATCA simply did not exist to the extent needed. Didn’t take long for FATCA to come into being once the tech infrastruture it required was in place, did it? As the technical requirements are met, more and more FATCA related or FATCA like programs will be put in place.
Let’s compare Japan of 30 years ago with Japan today. While a college student here 30 or so years ago, there were just 2, yes two, ISP accessable to the public in the whole of Japan. One of which went down while I was here. My school had only one, yes 1, pc conected to the internet. It was the librarian’s. If she was in a good mood and without much to do, she might let a student use it for email. No cell phones back then. Well, in the States there were the ones the size of a brick with a battery the size of a briefcase but those were not used by the general public. Gee, I wonder why the IRS didn’t use etech to really go after expats back then? It is not decades ago, it is now. Wake up and smell the coffee, you are stuck it the past.
How big an issue was ID theft decades and decades and decades ago? How about a decade ago. It has always been with us and terrible to its victims, but no where near as widespread and common place as it is now. Why? What changed?
And yet you are of the belief that Irs behavior and abilities will not increase. Despite the changes that have already been made over the past decade.
Duchesse;
“Here we differ. They •do• consider themselves to be USCs”
Then I agree the truthful answer is yes. If they decide they no longer want to be USCs, they can self-relinquish, stop registering to vote, stick the passport in a drawer and never renew it. And then the truthful answer will be “no.”
As I said:
“The correct and completely truthful answer, for an applicant who doesn’t have a US birthplace and doesn’t consider themselves US and doesn’t claim to be a US citizen, is no.”
Birdperson:
“I only put down my main dates of residence in the USA. I did NOT include any visits back (which have been numerous) as I considered those as visits, not residence. And I didn’t know my exact dates of residence, so I put down ‘approx’ in the boxes as well.”
Very sensible. And clearly was sufficient for the purpose, whatever the purpose might be.