Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
“That’s not how it works. It’s entirely voluntary – a kind of US-citizenship retainer fee (or, for many if not most, a US passport retainer fee).
You want to keep the passport, you’re supposed to send the IRS a share of your non-US income.
If you don’t care about the passport, don’t waste your time and money.”
BS. This sounds like the taxes as dues argument I have run across a few times of late. Besides, the “If you don’t care about the passport, don’t waste your time and money.” is nonsense to those of us with it as our one and only passport and unable to secure a second citizenship.
It is extortion.
“The IGA is a bloody different kettle of fish,” No it’s not. Just a different and new facet of the problem.
“which strips you of rights and, in some countries though not Canada) makes it necessary to buy a CLN in order to reassure banks that it’s safe to let you have an account.” Which rights does it strip from me?
“It’s got nothing – nothing whatsobloodyever – to do with US taxes or the IRS.”
The hell it doesn’t. It was for US taxes or the IRS that the US used hook and crook to get every country to agree to IGAs.
“Renounce, FATCA victims, if you can afford the fee. It really is the best solution to the problems inflicted by the IGA. And it’s your legal (and moral) right.”
“If you don’t want the deal, don’t agree to it.” Somehow, I do not recall have the choice to agree or not agree with the deal. In fact, never had the opportunity to even learn that such a deal could possibly exist.
The are a hell of lot of issues other than just the fee. At present, I could pribsbly scare up enough to pay the fee. Doesn’t do a damn bit of good though if I can’t get a second citizenship, in my case Japanese. Again, you put the cart before horse.
“A debt of 2350 to a credit card.” It is common practice of credit card companies in Japan to require the balance to be paid off each month. Used to be all but universal and still not easy to get, as I understand. After twenty years, I now have the option to convert a portion of my balance to “rebo” (revolving credit), but this entails a trip to the nearest service counter about an hour’s train ride away to arrange,…each month and extra fees.
Different countries, different realities
“the “If you don’t care about the passport, don’t waste your time and money.” is
nonsensenot applicable to those of us with it as our one and only passport and unable to secure a second citizenship.”Correct.
““The IGA is a bloody different kettle of fish,” No it’s not. ”
Oh yes it is. The IGA is the law of the land, which US tax laws are not.
So, why continue to leave out so many people? Why only focus on duals?
“Somehow, I do not recall have the choice to agree or not agree with the deal. In fact, never had the opportunity to even learn that such a deal could possibly exist.”
Me neither. Consequently I never agreed to the deal and lived happily as a dual citizen for fifty years, filing nary a US tax return.
@Fornerpatriot. I ws not suggesting nor was Heidi suggesting anyone does not fill out the forms required after reninciaiton. Heid was very kindly giving me some information on the process with the FABAR forms and money in the US account. I have always filed corect tax retunrns and intend to complete the required forms after renunciaton but appreciate the input about forms. As I have had no more than 10K in a non US bank acount there has been no need to file a FABAR so far. I think for everyone the whole process is very stressful and one just wants to do it right and have no repurcussions and I THANK everyone and Heidi and others on this forum for all their very valuable suggestions and input. Without this site I think I would be going crazy and I do not have the money to spend on expensive lawyers when this site has given me so much valuable informaioin and support.
“““The IGA is a bloody different kettle of fish,” No it’s not. ”
Oh yes it is. The IGA is the law of the land, which US tax laws are not.”
Nothing happens in a vacuum. You love to leave out the motivation behind the IGAs as well as dismiss the reports of those who have tried to question FATCA which the IGAs allow. We are told to contact the US taxing authority.
“Different countries, [different situations], different realities.”
Exactly. Though the different realities all fall into one or the other of these two categories: the USC does need/want the citizenship, or the USC does not need/want the citizenship.
Those in the first category are in a very different position from those in the second category.
“So, why continue to leave out so many people?”
Leave so many people out of what???
“Why only focus on duals?”
???
What a strange question!
If there’s something you want to say about USCs who don’t have a second citizenship, why not just say it, instead of complaining because I haven’t said whatever it is you want said.
Yes, and as one in the first group, talk of “choice”, ease of escape and “just ignore” is offensive. As are the “All roads lead to renunciation” and “Renounce and Rejoice” mantras.
“”So, why continue to leave out so many people?”
Leave so many people out of what???
“Why only focus on duals?”
???
What a strange question!
If there’s something you want to say about USCs who don’t have a second citizenship, why not just say it, instead of complaining because I haven’t said whatever it is you want said.”
He he he. I do. Hence this back and forth.
“…as one in the first group, talk of “choice”, ease of escape and “just ignore” is offensive. ”
Fortunately, for those who don’t want/need the citizenship, escape is indeed easy, provided the fee can be paid. And for those who do want/need the citizenship, it clearly is perfectly possible to ignore, given that that’s exactly what most expat USCs do.
Why you choose to consider it offensive to talk about reality is a mystery to me.
“He he he. I do. Hence this back and forth.”
Do what?
“Somehow, I do not recall have the choice to agree or not agree with the deal. In fact, never had the opportunity to even learn that such a deal could possibly exist.”
I do not recall consenting to my USA citizenship– EVER.
“I do not recall consenting to my USA citizenship– EVER.”
No one gets an opportunity to consent to US citizenship except those who naturalise.
A citizen of a non-US country may or may not know that filing US tax returns is a citizenship obligation.
If they don’t know, then by default they don’t file and therefore don’t agree to be taxed by the US and don’t get taxed by the US.
If they do know, they have the opportunity to decide to comply with the citizenship obligation and they do so by filing US tax returns.
Of course dials are addressed here. You, for obvious reasons, need a passport when you renounce. Why are you here and complaining as well if you Don’t have access to another passport? You can’t renounce and become stateless.
“it clearly is perfectly possible to ignore, given that that’s exactly what most expat USCs do.”
Yes, but that was before FATCA. Tax filing is now linked to passport renewal and they now have data from other sources to check. Ignoring it while our FIs are reporting us is going to cause a lot of problems for a lot of people.
Before FATCA, ignoring was not a problem. With FATCA and passport renewal linked to filing, it is going to be a big problem.
With there being no extradition like hearings for passport renewal and the huge amount of data leaked and number of ID thefts, it is going to be a huge problem and not just from the US.
I said:
“…for those who do want/need the citizenship, it clearly is perfectly possible to ignore, given that that’s exactly what most expat USCs do.”
Should have said:
“…for those who do want/need the citizenship, it clearly is perfectly possible for some to ignore, given that that’s exactly what most expat USCs do.”
That is MUCH better.
“Tax filing is now linked to passport renewal and they now have data from other sources to check. Ignoring it while our FIs are reporting us is going to cause a lot of problems for a lot of people.”
Can’t help you with your worries. I know nothing about Japan and very little about the IGA Model 2, and have no interest in knowing about either.
“That is MUCH better.”
Lol. I always aim to correct errors and inaccuracies, when I become aware of them. You should try it. 🙂
Such as?
Marsha (to Japan T):
“Why are you here and complaining as well if you Don’t have access to another passport? ”
Good question.
The time would be better spent complying, thus relieving anxieties while waiting to qualify for Japanese citizenship.
“Marsha (to Japan T):
“Why are you here and complaining as well if you Don’t have access to another passport? ”
Good question.
The time would be better spent complying, thus relieving anxieties while waiting to qualify for Japanese citizenship.
Simple. Can’t.
Renounce, comply, or ignore.
If you can’t renounce and you can’t comply, the only remaining option is to ignore. Which is presumably what you’re doing.
Relax, and don’t borrow trouble. And you might try to be happy for those who can renounce right now, just as you apparently hope to renounce in future.
What goes around, comes around.