Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Plaxy
There weren’t too many other sites around back in 2012 when I renounced., Brock was all I found.
I will always be eternally grateful to Petros whom I spoke to personally and who put my mind at ease.
I only said it was sad— not that I didn’t appreciate Brock (I do, so much).
We have to be mindful of projection.
I wish all good luck, no matter how they go.
I just don’t see peace being connected, in any way, to the USA.
“There weren’t too many other sites around back in 2012 when I renounced., Brock was all I found.”
Other sites did exist though. And still do, though traffic has decreased markedly, as it has here. A good sign, if due to most having found a solution.
“We have to be mindful of projection.”
Yes. What’s sad for one may be an occasion for relief and celebration, for another.
Heidi, Thanks for the valuable advice. Thanks for the tip about forex. Your suggestion to send the rest of my money from the US over after I renounce is a good idea so preumably that would still go on the final 8854 but would they not think it odd that there was not the main bit of the bank account moeny in the non us account and not on the FABAR. I am confusing myself here!
@SamieB
You are overthinking this. Relax. In many cases you can simply renounce and ignore the whole exit return nonsense. But if you do go through with it, they don’t really seem to check the numbers very closely, or care.
SamieB
I really think ot is pretty impossible for them to follow accounts and make any sense of it all.
For example If you move money from one fbar reportable account to another then that same amount gets reported twice. How do they know its the same money…. they don’t.
When you send in your 8854, the US money will be reported there. The 8854 is based on your net worth the DAY BEFORE you renounce. The US money will be listed being in a US bank on that day even though you msy have moved it to your home country.
@Jane
Yes, I agree about projection. I have had the most misunderstandings with my kids on email compared to just calling them on phone. I just didn’t want newbies here to think their only way out and only source of info was through a lawyer.
My life is def less stressful since leaving. Peace to you.
“It makes me so sad to think that the only real way to get out of this is to renounce now.”
Close but not quite. The only real way to get out of this is to renounce 15 years ago, if not earlier. And don’t forget to get your CLN promptly.
@SamieB
On this forum we often hear people say things like “Just renounce! Don’t bother filing 1040s, FBARs, 8854 etc”. Well, that may be fine for some people but not for me. My wife and my oldest son have renounced this year. I took care of filing all the appropriate 1040s (going back several years) and all the appropriate FBARS (also going back several years). I spent countless hours stressing about everything, reading forums, reading tax forms, reading cross-border tax books, watching youtube videos, etc. etc. In the end, it was a clean break with no lies, no hidden facts, no cheating. Now we sleep well. No worries.
For us, the idea of not filing all the appropriate tax returns and FBARs was not an option. We often go visit relatives in the US. With my wife and my son’s US birth places indicated on their Canadian passports, we would have been exposed to the risk of unfriendly questioning and scrutiny. However unlikely it may have been, we did not want to live with this fear hanging over our shoulders.
There is no word to describe how upset I am with the way the US treat its citizens abroad. Just thinking about it my blood starts to boil!
I lived in the US for a few years, on a green card. Before moving back to Canada, I considered applying for US citizenship. That was back in 1992. I had all the forms ready. But in the end I decided not to do it because I felt that the 900$ fee was outrageous. This year my wife and my son each paid 2350$ to renounce. Imagine if I had obtained US citizenship back in 1992. That would have been 900$ in 1992… and another 2350$ today.
Oh bother! I have 2 other kids with dual citizenship… In the end it will be 4 times 2350 = 9400$ down the drain.
@Heidi
My own life is less stressful having relinquished/receiving CLN. It’s still so surreal to me though, even now.
In order to live, I had to give up my nationality. How absolutely insane.
But, I still have two children who have this now hanging over their heads.
Just a little reminder that children born outside the US don’t have much hanging over their heads. No US birthplace > no US indicia > no FATCA or banking problems. Renunciation might be overkill.
“Just a little reminder that children born outside the US don’t have much hanging over their heads. No US birthplace > no US indicia > no FATCA or banking problems. Renunciation might be overkill.”
Again, an overly broad blanket statement. True for some but not all.
“it was a clean break with no lies, no hidden facts, no cheating.”
Lies? Cheating? You think renouncing US citizenship without filing US tax forms is cheating? I would be interested to hear your reasoning for that.
@formerpatriot
SamieB is compliant with no foreign accounts totalling pver 10,000. No one is suggesting he ‘lie or cheat’. Samie is just unsure when he should move his US assets to his home country. I suggested after renunciation when he would not have to declare it on an fbar and the money would only be declared on his 8854..
Where did the lie and cheat come from?!
There’s nothing “unclean” or dishonest about trying to get free of the completely unfair and undeserved consequences that have been dumped on the heads of US-born individuals by the IGAs.
The IGA (Model 1) lets your bank treat you like garbage if you made the mistake of getting born in America.
If you renounce your US citizenship, in accordance with US law, the bank still has the right to treat you like garbage for being born in America; but it no longer is legally obliged to treat you like garbage for being born in America. Normal banking becomes possible again.
Renouncing is not cheating. It’s not dishonest. It’s not dirty.
It’s your right. And it (largely) solves the problems created by the IGA.
To suggest that a person is dishonest if they exercise their legal right to renounce US citizenship without filing US tax forms is simply nuts.
@FormerPatriot
Perhaps it is just a semantics problem on your behalf but…
Whom do you think is the cheat and liar?
The American citizen who is living and working and paying his taxes in his country of residence?
The IRS who are trying to extricate form penalties and pensions contributions and home appreciations and money made honestly from non US investments and all basically taken from another countries treasury?
All this being done without adequate notice to the said ‘US person’ at the same time labelling them as a criminal?
Some people seem to think US-born citizens of Country X, resident in Country X, are somehow magically-legally obliged to pay tax to America on their non-US income, on top of whatever tax they’ve paid to their government.
That’s not how it works. It’s entirely voluntary – a kind of US-citizenship retainer fee (or, for many if not most, a US passport retainer fee).
You want to keep the passport, you’re supposed to send the IRS a share of your non-US income.
If you don’t care about the passport, don’t waste your time and money.
The IGA is a bloody different kettle of fish, which strips you of rights and, in some countries though not Canada) makes it necessary to buy a CLN in order to reassure banks that it’s safe to let you have an account.
It’s got nothing – nothing whatsobloodyever – to do with US taxes or the IRS.
Renounce, FATCA victims, if you can afford the fee. It really is the best solution to the problems inflicted by the IGA. And it’s your legal (and moral) right.
I said:
“You want to keep the passport, you’re supposed to send the IRS a share of your non-US income.”
Or more accurately, if you want to keep US citizenship, you’re supposed to accept that you’re always subject to US tax law, regardless of residence. You express your acceptance of this deal by filing a tax return each year, reporting your worldwide income as US-taxable, and of course paying the tax assessed as due.
If you don’t want the deal, don’t agree to it.
But it’s better to dump the citizenship, if you can afford it.
Renounce cleanly[*], live long, and be happy. 🙂
* i.e., without getting tangled up with US tax forms
“If you can’t afford renunciation ”
“And for everything else there is mastercard”
I can think of less worthy things people have used plastic money for. It’s accepted at consulates and some here have even earned some airmiles.
Another bad deal, IMO. 🙂 But each to their own. The USCs who are really in a spot are the ones who simply can’t pay $2350, by hook, crook, or credit.
Imo
A debt of 2350 to a credit card which can eventually be paid off is preferable to being tied to the US for a lifetime of stress. But of course I am only suggesting an option. 🙂
Yes, it’s certainly worth considering all options for getting one’s hands on a (genuine) CLN.