Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Maybe it’s an embassy/consulate thing whether they include them or not. Or something they don’t bother with these days, but did a few years ago. Who knows what goes on their minds?
Fortunately, with a UK birthplace it’s often quite easy to not bother renouncing and just go back to UK citizenship as far as banks are concerned. And it’s cheaper that way.
@plaxy
Correction, just checked that my line is crossed through but does have a start and end date month/yr.
But why would it matter when one resided there?. Some Americans never have.
CLNs seem to have only the start and end date. Surely that is all they are seem to be concerned about documenting on the cln. The embassies seem unconcerned with the correct documentation of all the other coming and goings ! Surely Samieb has his naturalization cert, and knows the date he left? That’s all they seem to want to document.
@plaxy
Yes but there could be some hiccups if one receives a pension or any finances from the US into a UK bank. I have a friend who was asked to prove his non USness to bank and a forex company.
My assumption would be (right or wrong) that since the information is collected, it’s available, and may be used, for instance, to check against watchlists. Whether it’s also available to the IRS, (on request, for example), I have no idea.
I agree there’s no need to know exact dates – “est.” should be fine. But I don’t know what checking is done, or whether a sizeable error could give rise to a query. Since it causes anxiety, I would think it might be better to leave it for a while and regain some peace of mind before undertaking renunciation. (Up to the poster, obviously)
@plaxy@Sammy
I think most of us have been nervous about the process until we have more understanding and input from others who have been before.
I would say that my Naturalization certificate was requested although the Embassy initially told me they didn’t need to see it which delayed my cln a month or so!
So start and end dates are important.
WTF. The current form asks your last address in the Excited States. It most certainly doesn’t ask when. SamieB. You are worrying over nothing. You are a ‘minnow ‘. in our parlance. They only go after whales and even then have a great deal of trouble catching them.
“The current form asks your last address in the Excited States. It most certainly doesn’t ask when.”
The questionnaire does.
‘The questionnaire does’
Obvously they want to know if you have skipped the country with a bounty on your head
“nor does the IRS have the time and the inclination to chase up minnows.”
Evidence suggests the IRS doesn’t have the inclination to chase up minnows who don’t file. But if a minnow files, this happens:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/04/27/gao-report-reveals-ovd-minnows-paid-up-to-129x-more-in-penalties-than-in-tax-owed/
@Heidi. When you renounced only 2 months after leaving the US had you had to file any FABAR’s previously or did you only file once renounced as you did not have an overseas account or did not have over $10k in it?
SamieB – if you’re worrying about whether the IRS might suspect that you should have filed FBARs, you might want to consider ust backfiling FBARs now, to make double sure you’re okay. There is no penalty for doing so, assuming no tax is owed.
See https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/delinquent-fbar-submission-procedures
@SamieB
I had always filed fbars, I had over $10,000 in multiple accounts abroad as I had property abroad to maintain and also an elderly parent to take care of.
@SamieB
If you opened your so called ‘foreign’ fbar reportable accounts with your home country passport then they may not have been identified as reportable and not sent to the US.
As someone here said “you don’t have to tell them something they don’t already know or can know”
If you are worried about any accounts that you think may have been reported then you can do as plaxy suggests and back file with an excuse that you didn’t know that you had to.
I had sent Funds from the US to my accounts so they were identifiable.
It makes me so sad to think that the only real way to get out of this is to renounce now.
All advice has no guarantee. Everything is capricious and arbitrary (unless you can hire an expensive lawyer, and even then…).
I see no hope from the current administration of sociopaths. I never thought I’d ever be telling my children to renounce their heritage.
🙁
Heidi:
“As someone here said “you don’t have to tell them something they don’t already know or can know” ”
It may be in one’s interest to do so though, if it lowers anxiety levels.
@Heidi,Plaxy. I have not had any account outside the US and so nothing to report on FABR’s with more than 10k in it. I repoerted in the tax return (ticked that box have you a foreign account)but as there wss no over 10K it was not reportable on a FABAR. Once I renounce I will transfer the entire balance of my US aacount and close it and then it is reportable on FABAR as it woudl then have over 10k in the account. I will just checking the procedure but it seems this is correct procedure.
@SamieB
Once you renounce your done. You have no requirement to report anything on your fbars after that date. You can move anthing from the US to your home accounts and that’s entirely your own business. I am not sure what you are worried about?
@jane
There is no need to hire expensive lawyers, unless you sre a high net worth person and need advice on how to lower your exit tax. The people here on Brock can give pretty good advice to the rest.
@Samieb
Fbars reporting ends the day you renounce but you will still need to file your last 1040/1040NR and the 8854 by June the year following renunciation to check out of the IRS. If you renounce this year forms due by June 2019, renounce next year then you will have to wait until June 2020 to check out.
“There is no need to hire expensive lawyers, unless you sre a high net worth person and need advice on how to lower your exit tax. The people here on Brock can give pretty good advice to the rest.”
I know this.
It’s still incredibly sad this site exists.
Personally, I’ve found this and other USC forums and blogs extremely useful in trying to get my head round the bizarre situation dropped on US-born individuals by FATCA and the IGAs.
Without such sites, it would be much more difficult for newly-FATCA’ed individuals to work out their best options.
@Heidi. Yes agree but I was just questioning the procedure for the FABAR. Say renonce this year and this year had over $10k in foreign account (firs time) then next year you file the FABAR for this year from 1 Jan – date of renunciation say 31 Dec fo rsake of argument then next year you file 1040 and 1040Nr as you say along with FABAR for this years account and final 8854. i know yoiu have to put your house/property on there but I do wonder how on earth do they check the value of it (mines not worth much anyway.) What do they do go to the land registries and ask in each country! Would it be ebtter to renounce now before the end of the year or wait till early next year?
Samieb
It’s up to you, if you want to be free of it all and don’t want another year of reporting
then try to get an appointment before the end of the year. Who knows what other requirements they will bring in next?!
You only need to report your fbars account balance for that part of the year in which you are a citizen, so if you want to dend over a large dum then I would wait until after you renounce. By the way Forex companies will give you a much better exchange rate than banks for large amounts. Some will not take American citizens as clients, so wait til after
you renounce before sending money.
Re house price check as far as I know I have heard of no one who had been asked to justify a house price, maybe if it is a multimillion one, They state they do not need an estate agent valuation so just put roughly what you think you could sell it for. As we know they hardly have time and manpower to process these returns, let alone spend time checking land registries, especially if you are not a covered expat and there is nothing to be gained.
@Jane
Yes, sad for so many of us.The Consul where I renounced also remarked how sad it was to see so many good people go.
I was a Naturalized American so perhaps do not feel it so acutely as some who feel they have lost their birthright. I felt anger that I was forced to renounce when I had given the US so much of my life.