Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Participants will need to provide their e-mail address (real or fake) and an alias. The only written rule is that participants must use a same alias each time they post (and not “anonymous” or derivatives thereof).
Bear in mind that any responses that you get from participants is peer-to-peer help, and it is not intended as a replacement for professional advice. Also, the Isaac Brock Society provides this disclaimer: neither the Society nor any of its members are professionals. We offer our advice here only in friendship and we recommend that our readers seek professional advice if they need it.
If you wish to receive an e-mail notification of comments, check the box to that effect when making your first comment.
NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I find that it is rarely the actual word that bothers anyone, just who said it.
@pacifica777, KingOfTheRoad, BirdPerson, tdott, NormanDiamond.
Thanks for the replies. I cannot even recall the year and not sure if the consulate or the State department check the dates with say Customs & Border Protection to see when you were last there and if the date did not match my periods of residence questionaire coudl that be an issue? I know they scan you passport going in so they know when you enterred but do they know when a US citizen departs the US. I am worried they may cross check the dates and if it does not match their records I could get into problems as not putting the correct dates years.This whole thing is so stressful
@Kabby
Form 4079 is very confusing, it’s purpose is twofold. It is used for people trying to claim a backdated relinquishment but also for those who think they have somehow lost their citizenship and want it back!
Most embassies do not use it for a simple renunciation, it is not relevant but some embassies like automatoms continue to include it in simple renunciations. It does not matter when you were last in the US , how long you stayed or if you used your US passport to enter or leave. If you have no record of your trips to the US then just say you have no records, it will not matter. If it makes you feel more at ease, email the embassy and tell them you have not kept any records, what should you do?
PS@Kabby
The reason the date questions are asked is only relevant if you were trying to claim a backdated relinquishment (eg by having taken another citizenship ) but had used your US passport to enter the US after the time you say you relinquished . The US passport use would be a NON relinquishing act.
You are going for a simple renunciation, the dates of your travel or passport use are not relevant .
@ND (who wrote “Is it the obfuscation or the profanity?”)
No Sir. It’s the lack of class, the lack of civility.
@claude
The lack of civility is not directed towards other Brock participants but it stems from the anger most of us here feel towards the US government which cares nothing for its diaspora except for financial exploitation.
Many of us here have expressed ourselves in similar ways. It is understandable.
@Heidi. Thanks all for the replies. The London and Edinburgh Embassy have told me they dont require from DS 4079 to be compelted for a straight renunciation only “The losss of citizenship” questionaire. My question was if the dates for periods of residence do not match say the State departments or whoever checks this form as what I put down as not exactly sure of the dates of periods of residnce or when last exited would this be an issue. I know the passport is stamped going on but cant recall it ever beeing stamped when exiting and that is how I dont know.
@Kabby
There is no exit stamp or passport control when departing the US, though in an investigation there are flight records and for land borders with Canada, an exchange of entry information.
But more to the point, the consensus here is that for simple renunciation, dates don’t really matter and won’t be checked. So do your best or say that you don’t have good records, but don’t worry about it too much.
@Kabby
Not sure that I know about the loss of citizenship questionaire that you refer to. Perhaps it is just an Embassy questionaire?
The state renunciation forms are thus
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/department-of-state-forms-and-procedure-manuals-for-renouncingrelinquishing/
However, it does not matter how many times you have been in and out of the US, if you are a citizen and it bears no relationship to your rights to renounce, they don’t have time to waste on checking on you if there is nothing to be gained from it.
Good luck
@ Heidi,
I think Kabby is referring to this “Loss of Citizenship Questionnaire“. It’s a one-pager produced locally, not an official Department of State form. It’s on the US Embassy London site, but the Edinburgh and Belfast posts use it as well.
@Pacifica
Thanks
I thought it might be an Embassy creation, why do they have to make everything so dammed complex and stress producing?!
“why do they have to make everything so dammed complex and stress producing?!”
That’s how petty people get their jollies.
“That’s how petty people get their jollies.”
Actually, most people are nice people.
In almost all the renunciation stories that I have read, the embassy people were described as being very friendly.
The problem is at the top.
Charging 2350 dollars is outrageous.
@Kabby and formerpatriot
Yes, I agree, after a shaky start reports of Embassy staff at renunciations are ‘now’ mostly positive. Mine was delightful and said she undesrstood why we were all renouncing and how sad it was to see people go.
In fact FATCA has also given them a lot of extra work . It’s the folks on high that have created this situation.
Like that of formerpatriot and heidi, my experience (2016) renouncing at a US Embassy (Iceland) was very positive and the staff were understanding and sympathetic. For me, the kindness of the staff actually made my renunciation more difficult.
In 2011 the US embassy in Tokyo used standard State Department forms including one that asked about various dates, even for renunciation. Some of my answers were forgotten dd – forgotten mm – 1975, etc. I wrote answers by pen and paper, and the embassy inputted it to their computer system the same way, no problem.
When discussing the [censored], civility is uncalled for. However, as mentioned, if someone wants to edit it to say “screwer” it’s no problem. The other word can be edited too.
But who is it that demands these forms be filled out, the friendly folks at the window or this higher up the chain of command?
I think in 2011 they hadn’t quite got used to it yet and they didn’t notice that they didn’t really understand the forms. If someone decided later that they were going to continue making the demand, then sure, let’s ask who. Anyway the point was that they didn’t need precise dates.
@pacifica777,KingOfTheRoad,Birdperson,tdott,NormanDiamond,Nonymous,heidi,formerpatriot,JapanT. Thanks for all the help. Yes the form is the same one Pacifica777 linked to. Its a one page questionaire. My only concern was why do they ask for the dates and if they check them when the parperwork is first pressnted a tthe membassy or when it is sent to the State Department and if they were not accurate could this cause a problem with the process? They obviously have a reason to ask the dates but not knowing when I was last there is my problem. If there are no exit checks for US citizens when one departs the USA then maybe there is no way of knowing but I read somewhere that CBP know entry and exit dates of US citizens and its available via a freedom of information request from CBP but that takes along time I heard. Anyway thaks for everyones help. I will just put not sure or approx and some dates and hope they dont cross check them! I wake up at night worryng about this whole process and not wanting to fill a form out wrong going through it. Stressful to say the least. Then there is the tax stuff to deal with too.
@Kabby
I think the date questions are left over from the form 4079 and the chance that some people may perhaps prefer (if they qualify) to relinquish if possible, hence US passport use would need be checked.
Obviously there is a reluctance in some Embassies to give up that form and still have renunciants fill 4079. If it would make you feel better, then email them and ask what you should do as you haven’t kept records. But please be reassured it is not relevant to your renunciation as others here have been told.
I am not sure if you are tax compliant or intend to back file 5yrs and 6 yrs FBARS and 8854. Many here who have no US assets and no US heirs have decided to ignore the back tax reporting requirements. If you are a citizen of the country in which you now live then your Gov will not collect anything on the US behalf.
https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/11/01/dual-citizens-of-sweden-france-netherlands-denmark-canada-take-note-your-country-will-not-collect-for-the-u-s/
Others, have just kept the tax reporting ‘simple’, and again others have just sent a final 8854 (to avoid covered status.)
Kabby, put down your best guesses and don’t worry about it. Nothing you put on that form can stop you renouncing your citizenship. It’s your right under US law and if you put down dates that meant you only spent 2-3 days at a time it wouldn’t matter. You have the right to renounce and the only thing that can deny you that is if the embassy/consulate believe you’re being coerced or are mentally unable to understand what you’re doing. If neither of those are the case, then basically the form is irrelevant.
Fill it in as best you can, send it back, get an appointment, go to the embassy/consulate, check paperwork, pay fee, stand in front of the consul/vice consul and swear the oath and that’s it. You will no longer be a US citizen from that moment.
PS Kabby
On further reading of that Embassy foirm, it asks for dates when you were ‘resident’ in the USA. It does not ask for visits. I would assume ‘resident’ means when you were living there permanently, ie as a child, at school, or working. Who knows why they want it, the US is now beyond my comprehension. 🙂
Just approximate those dates as best you can and others have, relax and take Medea’s good advice.
@heiid & MedeaFleecestealer. My problem is I dont knwow when I was resident there cant remember but wil take everyones advice and just put down dates I think are about right and if they check and they are wrong then will have bear the consequences whatrever they maybe! I wil be glad when all this is over like everyoe on here probably. Thanks everyone for your help!
Can anyone offer advice. I am naturlized US citizen want to renounce. I Left US roughly 1 year ago. Would they think it odd that I want to remounce so soon after leaving the US or be suspicous of anything? I have decided the US is not for me to live anynmore and want retire back to my home country where I am a citizen have family and was born.