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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. I believe there is a consensus on IBS that if you have never filed, aren’t in the system and don’t even have a social security number, you should not bother. It might do more harm than good.
    There appears to be nothing they can do to hurt you. As far as getting a work visa is concerned, I haven’t yet seen a single post.

    We applied in Sept 2016, received an appointment in BC Feb 2017 and the CLN about 6 weeks after that. It may be quicker now.

  2. @newbie, I agree with Portland. If you’re not in their system, i.e. don’t have an SSN, then don’t bother.

    As for a work visa, it shouldn’t be a problem. No cases one way or the other have been reported here though as far as I’m aware.

  3. I think it doesn’t hurt to file a Form 8854 by itself. There are even instructions that if you don’t have to file a return but do file a Form 8854, you send only a single 8854 to the address where it has to go and you don’t send an 8854 to the place where you would have sent a return. On the 8854 you can certify that you’ve been compliant for the past 5 years — you were indeed compliant, since your income was below the threshhold that requires filing returns.

    As for whether you _want_ to file a Form 8854, that only depends on whether you care about becoming a covered expatriate. If you inherit a ton of money, and then eventually your heirs inherit from you, if any of your heirs are US citizens and if you’re a covered expatriate then the US will tax around 40% of what they inherit from you. Your heirs can avoid that if they renounce too before you die, or you can avoid it by submitting a Form 8854.

    I don’t know if anyone has tried submitting a Form W-7 (application for Individual Taxpayer Identification Number) together with the single Form 8854. If the IRS rejects the W-7, I don’t think the rejection will hurt you at all.

  4. Norman Diamond:

    I think it doesn’t hurt to file a Form 8854 by itself. There are even instructions that if you don’t have to file a return but do file a Form 8854, you send only a single 8854 to the address where it has to go and you don’t send an 8854 to the place where you would have sent a return. On the 8854 you can certify that you’ve been compliant for the past 5 years — you were indeed compliant, since your income was below the threshhold that requires filing returns.

    I agree. And filing the 8854 (only) would seem prudent, if hoping in future to be granted a visa to work in America.

  5. The 8854 instructions say:

    Identifying number. Generally, this number is your U.S. social security number. An incorrect or missing identifying number may result in a continued obligation to file U.S. tax returns as a citizen or resident of the United States for persons expatriating after June 3, 2004, and before June 17, 2008, and/or a penalty of $10,000. If you were never issued a social security number, please attach a statement explaining the reason.

    https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf

  7. Thanks for remembering!

    My relinquishment was turned down since I’ve used a passport (bullied into it by an immigration official and later a chap at the US Embassy in London). So I had to renounce.

    I had mentioned that I’m planning to travel to the USA on 17 October. My US passport expires on 08 October, which is why I went yesterday to try for relinquishment. The staff told me that they would ask for an expedited CLN. However, only after I’d renounced, did the official tell me that I’d be best off applying for a visitor’s visa, as any application under ESTA would be turned down due to my USA place of birth!

    I’ve applied for an ESTA, and the response states that I’ll have to wait 72 hours for a response.

    There may be bit of stress here trying to get a visa appointment before I’m due to fly. Had I been told re ESTA beforehand, I would have applied for a new US passport, flown out, and renounced after the trip. Urgh!

  8. Embassy sort of wrong. Place of birth doesn’t come into it, it would probably be the fact that your renunciation wouldn’t be in the system yet. I renounced a few years ago and got an ESTA with no problems despite having a US birthplace. I expected it to take the full 48 hours mentioned on the website, but in fact it was only a few hours before I got confirmation.

  11. Whew, authorisation for the ESTA approved!

    What a relief!

    If my CLN hasn’t come through my then, I’ll go with a copy of the receipt, as others have done.

    I’ll write up my experience for the log when I’ve calmed down.

  12. Yay! Yes, definitely take a copy of the receipt if you haven’t received the CLN by then. If you have then take a copy or copies of that. Some people take the original with them, but I can’t see the point. a) I don’t want to lose it even though you can order another one if needed and b) it’s all in their system anyway so they shouldn’t need to see the original.

  13. I am simply amazed. I was only at the Embassy 36 hours ago. And the chap was insistent that I’d need to get a visa. It’s worth bearing in mind my experience for anyone else renouncing and wanting to travel in the near future. The USA visa form is the most complicated I’ve come across, and I’ve travelled to Russia, China, and North Korea.

    I’ve already copied the receipt for my own records.

  15. First…..this is a repeat question from another post/page….my appologies for this but I am wondering if there might be more people here to read my question and provide some advice. I did make some changes to the originial post for clarification.

    I am very confused as to whether I am a US Citizen or not. I was born in the US to 2 Canadian citizens. We were living in the US at the time because my father, a Canadian Army Officer, was posted to a US military base as a “liason officer”. I do have a US birth certificate but I also have a “Canadian Born Abroad” certificate. At that time I was a dual citizen. We moved back to Canada before I was a year old and I have never lived in the US since. I am getting conflicting information as to whether or not I am still a US citizen. If I am, can I relinquish based on the fact that I have never lived there since birth? As a kid I was told that at 18 (1989) I would lose the US citizenship if I did not live in the US, but in my 20s (early to mid 90’s) I was told by a US embasy employee that I would be a US citizen for life. I am also a Federal Government employee (since 2001), would that be grounds for relinquishing? I did read something about working for a foreign government but I wondered if that mean more about “governing” rather than just being a federal employee (civil servant). If I understand correctly I would much rather relinquish than renounce since I believe renounciation requires filing of taxes for a certain number of years (was it 3 or 5??). Also, I think you can back date a reliquishment but that renounciation only takes effect at the time you meet with the US official.

    I am very afraid of asking anyone official for advice because I have been trying very hard to keep my name away from US officials in case it turns out that I am still a US citizen and should be filing back taxes and FBARs.

    Thoughts? Am I still a US citizen? If no, do I need to officially inform anyone that I am no longer a citizen.
    If yes, do I qualify for relinquishment? Can I back date it? To when? 1989 or 2001?

  17. @Susan
    It looks as though you may have been a US citizen at Birth from the fact of being born on US soil. The only exception to this is if your father or mother were foreign diplomats in the US at that time.
    You can check with the US consulate where you live to clarify this and double check that a Canadian Army officer also qualifies for non transference.
    However the fact that you worked for the Canadian Federal Gov from 2001 would give you the right to claim a backdated relinquishment without back tax filing, as long as you intended to relinquish your US citizenship at that time and took or signed an oath of service to the Canadian Gov and did nothing American since then like apply for a passport, vote or file US taxes.
    Relinquishment is a little trickier as you have to prove that it was your intention to lose US citizenship and be approved by the State Dept. It often takes longer to be approved than simple renunciation.

  18. On July 26, my wife sent an email to CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov requesting an appointment for the renunciation of her US citizenship. Today she received an email with her appointment date. So it took only 7 weeks. Her appointment is in less than 5 weeks. I love the date: October 17. I guess we’ll smoke a joint to celebrate! (For non-Canadians: marijuana will become legal on October 17 in Canada).

  20. Formerpatriot, great news! Which city?

    Sent mine on same date, requesting Ottawa or Montreal; and early this week inquired re wait. They replied immediately to say they were processing my request and notifying me re appt. could take “ several weeks/ months”.

  22. Duchesse: Quebec City.

    By the way, I just spoke to my son and he told me this bizarre story. He renounced (in Quebec City) last July 25. He told me that they were quite disorganized at the Consulate. He figured it’s because they do not get many renunciation cases in Quebec City. Then, about 5 weeks after his renunciation, he got a phone call from Vancouver and he was told that his renunciation appointment would have to be in Vancouver! He said “Well, that’s very kind of you to call me with this info but there is a problem: I had my appointment 5 weeks ago in Quebec City and I have renounced!” She said “Oh, sorry, my mistake”. WTF?

    This week he got an email saying that his CLN was on its way.

  23. It seems that whatever the wires that got crossed between Vancouver and Quebec, the news that the renunciation had taken place immediately put an end to the matter. As in, “Oops, sorry, you’re none of our business anymore.”

    Gratifying, no?

  24. @ Formerpatriot:
    At least he did it, expediently.

    I really hope my appt. will be in this calendar year. I should have given Quebec City, too!

  25. An update. I renounced at the London Embassy on 6 September. In view of my upcoming trip to the USA, the embassy official agreed to expedite the paperwork. The CLN was stamped on 12 September, and the certificate has arrived today.

    I had no advice that the CLN was on its way.

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