Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Plaxy and BP
“If I wanted to make a case for relinquishment despite having renewed US passport, I would base it on the injustice of US law which treats renewal of US passport as evidence of intent to retain US citizenship, while at the same time requiring a US passport for entry to US.”
I think that case would be difficult as BP would be challenging US law. I would try to make a case that WITHIN that law she was NOT offered a choice of Relinquishment VS Retention of US citizenship as she was bullied into applying for a US passport by a US border agent after she had clearly demonstrated her intention to relinquish by using her UK passport to enter the US on previous occasions. Furthermore she was denied that choice at the US Embassy as when she presented her UK passport she was NOT asked the question if she had intended to relinquish US citizenship (per the flow chart in the handbook at that time.)
BirdPerson:
Understandably.
I think the rage has to be blamed on the rager. I broke the same US law you did – changed my name by UK Deed Poll without asking permission from the cursed USG. Consequently, when I renounced I presented a US passport bearing one name and my UK passport bearing a different name. I didn’t get raged at though.
Likewise, at the same time I was renouncing, I was applying for US social security via the FBU. They didn’t explode with rage on discovering that the name on my socoal security card was not the same as the name on my UK passport. They just gave me a form to complete in order to update the name on the SS account.
So I think you were just very unlucky in being confronted by an individual with serious anger issues.
Re:
The requirement of an explanatory statement is in both the 2001 edition of the DS-82 application and the edition released in February 2008 as well as the current edition:
@BP
You should definetly add that you felt threatened at both the border and subsequently at the embassy enough not to dare ask any further questions. It was the responsibility of the Embassy official at that time, when presented with the UK passport (before the intent question was asked on the passport applicatiuon) as to your intention to relinquish or retain US citizenship.
“I think that case would be difficult as BP would be challenging US law.”
Not BirdPerson – me. I was speaking of what I would do.
The option didn’t arise for me; I wasn’t able to claim backdated relinquishment because I really hadn’t had the intent to lose US citizenship when I naturalised. And I had voted. In those days (when I
naturalised, and when I voted), I didn’t know there was going to be a reason for wanting to ditch US citizenship.
@Pacifica
That is a surprise, I don’t remember it being on there in the past!
The passport form is the one for US citizens in the US, not for those residing abroad. But thanks for showing it to me.
I recall a tick box for ‘do you hold a foreign passport.’ I do not recall any statement re taking on another citizenship. And I clearly handed over a UK passport to the official, who merely said ‘I’ll take this away for photocopying.’
Yes, I am stating on my submission that my right to expatriation (as is quoted in INA Section 349, Note 1) was impaired etc by the acts of both officials:
Whereas the right of expatriation is a natural and inherent right of all people, indispensable to the enjoyment of the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; and whereas in the recognition of this principle this Government has freely received emigrants from all nations, and invested them with the rights of citizenship; Therefore any declaration, instruction, opinion, order or decision of any officer of the United States which denies, restricts, impairs, or questions the right of expatriation, is declared inconsistent with the fundamental principles of the Republic.
Other than the passport, I have only acted as a British citizen.
@Plaxy
I thought BP was asking for help as to how she would approach this and write her statement .
We would all question the injustice of US law.
Yes, can I just express my thanks to all of you.
If anyone has gone through the process, or thinks they could assist me by looking over my submission, please feel free to ask the moderators for my email address.
Inspired by BP’s stories, I want to share our personal experience about change of name and about using a non-USA passport to enter the USA:
Change of name:
When we got married in the USA, my wife adopted my family name. We just followed the tradition.
Years later we moved to Canada. Now every government agency wanted her to use her maiden name. Her “Record of Landing” (from Immigration Canada) showed both her maiden name and her marriage name. But after that, it was her maiden name everywhere: medical card, driver’s license, social insurance card and, more years later, her Canadian passport.
Eventually, she reverted back to her maiden name in the USA as well: IRS, Social Security Administration, Department of State.
Nobody ever gave her a hard time.
Use of her Canadian passport to enter the USA:
Since she became a Canadian citizen, she always travels with her Canadian passport. Including travel to the USA. Same with my kids who were all dual citizens from birth. I figured it would be simpler if we all traveled with passport from the same country and since I have only a Canadian passport, it had to be Canadian passports for everyone.
For my wife and 2 older kids, the Canadian passport does show a USA birth place.
My wife visits her family in the USA about once or twice a year.
She has been doing this with her Canadian passport for the last 10 years or so.
Nobody ever gave us a hard time.
At some point I became aware of a rule (or law?) to the effect that she is supposed to use her US passport when she travels to the USA. Thus, in recent years she has been traveling with her Canadian passport but she also carries her US passport in her carry-on luggage, just in case.
Heidi:
“We would all question the injustice of US law.”
Absolutely.
Hi all
Struggling to know what to say about the 1996 amendment of the IRS code and the lack of need to advise the US State dept. Should I include these two paragraphs, or shall I delete the second one?
No requirement to advise the US State Department
As noted above, my act of expatriation occurred in 1993. I did not advise the US Government as I believed that my case was the same as my parents’, namely that my very act of taking on another citizenship meant that I had relinquished US citizenship.
In addition, I note that there was NO legal requirement for me, under US law at that time, to advise the US State Department, as this requirement only came into effect as from February 6 1995 as per the 1996 Amendment of the IRS code.
I don’t think it’s a big deal because the 1996 amendment affected one’s relations with the IRS, “tax citizenship,” but didn’t affect one’s citizenship status with DoS, who we’re dealing with here.
Regarding citizenship itself, then or now, there’s no requirement to notify DoS in order to lose the citizenship.
The potentially relinquishing act, if performed voluntarily with the intent of terminating US citzienship, is what causes the citizenship loss.
Notifying DoS resolves ambiguity because a CLN provides convenient proof that citizenship loss occurred because it shows that the other party to the “citizenship contract,” the US govt, agrees with your contention that you terminated the contract. (It also resolves ambiguity because after a relinquishing act, but prior to a CLN being applied for, one who performed a relinquishing act can still perform acts of citizenship — eg applying for a passport — which become barred to them once they formally notify DoS of their relinquishment.) But notifying DoS doesn’t trigger the citizenship loss, it just results in a CLN that attests to it.
@FormerPatriot
I am not sure of the proceedure for Canadian citizens to enter the US?
For visa waiver countries the ESTA proceedure is rather intrusive, where birthplace, citizenship,(muliply, past and present), parents info and the usual are you a terrorist, prostitute, drug dealer, criminal, communicable disease etc. etc questions.
So if someone has a US passport it would be commiting perjury and a criminal act not to disclose this when applying and of course an ESTA would not be granted if one affirmed US citizenship.
@Heidi I’ll need to ask the US Embassy about what to do about my upcoming trip to the USA. Some people report that you’re given a letter by the embassy to confirm that you’ve renounced and are awaiting your CLN. I guess you put on the ESTA that you don’t have any other citizenship? I’ve never had to apply for one. Can someone enlighten me who has travelled to the USA since receiving their CLN or relinquishing/renouncing?
@BIrdPerson, if you have one put it on there. It doesn’t matter if you weren’t naturalised, but got the other citizenship by descent. I got my British citizenship from birth via my British parents so that’s what went on the ESTA when I applied for one a couple of years ago. Details of my British passport and my old cancelled US passport as well.
@Heidi:
I have never heard of the ESTA procedure. So I googled it.
From http://www.esta.us/canada.html :
@BirdPerson
You will have to check with the London Embassy, it seems different Embassies give different instructions.
I was given back my US passport and told to use it if I needed to travel to the US in the interim.
I believe that State dept guide I posted gives this as the correct proceedure but others have had their US passports taken from them and given a receipt for their renunciatoin/relinquishment and told to use their other passport.
My US passport expires before my travel date, so I’m hoping for something else.
Reports on the London Embassy speak of being given a letter (for renunciations) stating that the person is waiting for their CLN. I have also heard of the receipt being used.
“Canada is not part of the Visa Waiver Program. Canada and the United States have special agreements that ensure that Canadian and American citizens can easily travel between the the two countries.”
https://www.mynbc5.com/article/local-man-jailed-for-crossing-street/3293715
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/06/13/house-for-sale-straddling-us-canada-border/102783516/
There was a more recent case of some jogging on a beach and getting arrested for illegally entering the US.
Yes but the jogger wasn’t a US or Canadian citizen. She was French, visiting relatives in White Rock. The beach doesn’t even have a row of flower pots to repel invaders.
That was one of the US government’s prouder moments. The border is not actually marked in that area. 18-year-old French girl visiting her mother, went for a run down the beach. Had no idea she’d crossed the border, was on the way back north and switched to a trail through the woods because she thought the tide was coming in. CBP stopped her and carted her off; she spent a week in immigration detention in Tacoma or some damn thing before she was returned to her Canada.
What an utter pack of assholes. I’m determined to avoid the place. I wouldn’t give them $2.35 to renounce, let alone $2,350.
@Nononymous:
Yes, the $2,350 is very annoying.
I guess there are 3 options:
A. Stay under the radar. Do not become compliant. Do not file IRS tax returns. Do not file FBARs.
B. Be compliant with all the rules and all the filing requirements.
C. Fulfill the necessary requirements (say, 6 years of tax returns and FBARs) and renounce!
For some people, Option A is the best. For some people it’s Option B and for some others it’s Option C.
For my wife and my older son, Option A is bad and Option C is a whole lot cheaper than Option B. At $2,350, renunciation is indeed VERY expensive. But it is cheaper than having to pay an accountant to file a bunch of 3520, 3520-A, 8621 etc.
2,350 USD = 3,000 CAD.
Wife + 3 kids = 4 people.
4 x 3,000 CAD = 12,000 CAD.
It is still a good deal!
As of today, only one of my 3 kids has chosen the renunciation option but that may change…
P.S. If a dual citizen (Canada-USA) chooses to be fully compliant, how much would it cost every year to have a cross-border “expert” do his IRS tax return (assuming the individual lives in Canada, has a TFSA, has some RESP for his kids and has some investments in a non-registered account)? $1,000? $1,500? $2,000?
FP:
D. Renounce
E. Comply minimally.