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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. Duchesse talks about 8891 and 8938.
    A question comes to my mind:
    Suppose that you are a dual citizen (Canada-USA) and suppose you late-file for the years 2012 to 2017. Which one of the following is correct?
    A. You ignore form 8891 and you use form 8938 for every year from 2012 to 2017.
    B. You use form 8891 for 2012 and 2013 and you use form 8938 for years 2014 to 2017.
    C. Either way is okay.

  2. Duchesse and Trebor:

    When did you renounce?
    How long did it take, after renunciation, to receive your CLN?

    From your posts, I assume that you have renounced in 2018.

  3. @FormerPatriot
    I renounced approximately 3 months ago in Canada (Early May). I have not received my CLN.
    When I renounced the Consul said that I should receive my CLN within 90 days. Since 90 days has come and gone, I was wondering if I should send an email at some point asking politely about my CLN. Opinions?

  4. Formerpatriot. I vote for A. We late filed 2012-15 without 8891. This was with the blessing of an enrolled agent

  5. Thanks Portland.
    I also did the “A approach” in 2015 when I late-filed for my wife.
    We have not heard from the IRS.

  6. Trebor: Have not renounced yet; awaiting notice re date of my appointment. I anticipate appointment will be near end of year.

  7. Well, I filed the obsolete 8891 since 2012 through this year and the IRS never said, Hey wake up.

    But this week they notified me that I had not filed that Health Care Exemption Form, which I also didn’t know about.

    So C. reflects my experience… but for 2018 I’ll file 8938, to go out in style.

  8. @ Trebor,

    It’s not terribly late yet, but I’d follow up with the consulate, as you’re thinking of doing.

    But if they blow you off and it doesn’t arrive by the end of the month, then I’d contact the office of Christine Fagan, Western Hemisphere Division Chief for Office of American Citizens Services at DoS HQ. Page OD-17 in the DoS Telephone Directory. That’s the office that issues the CLNs. Sometimes things get lost in the cracks and the Division Chiefs have got things expedited very quickly for several Brockers when a CLN was overdue and the consulate was non-responsive (or meaninglessly vague).

  10. @trebor:
    Given that it’s summer, lot’s of people are on vacation and I would expect that “3 months” can easily become “4 months”. I would not worry about it… says the man who worries about everything…

  11. “Sounds more like you chased the IRS than the other way round!”

    They send nasty letters, they imposed liens, etc. The victim has to be the one to file suit. In Bull v. US the Supreme Court explained why the roles of plaintiff and defendant are reversed in tax cases, because tax money is the lifeblood of government, but the Supreme Court didn’t explain that tax money is supposed to be the lifeblood of embezzlers.

    I’m still trying to get my withholding refunded, for which I haven’t done enough chasing yet.

    Compliance brings penalties and more.

  12. ND:

    “In Bull v. US the Supreme Court explained why the roles of plaintiff and defendant are reversed in tax cases, because tax money is the lifeblood of government, ”

    That’s just more bullshit. The taxpayer has to be the one to initiate legal action because the government has control of the money and the power to keep it, while the taxpayer has neither. Hence withholding.

    (It’s also the reason CBT (US taxation of non-US income) can’t be enforced: the residence country has control of the money and the power to withhold.)

    “I’m still trying to get my withholding refunded”

    Is it worth it, ND? It’s you that’s paying the price, not them.

  13. Can someone help me track this down?

    At some point in this process, I came across a link to a handbook for US embassy officials, which stated that if a US citizen, upon renewal of an American passport, handed over a foreign passport, the official was required to ask the citizen whether they had planned to retain or to renounce US citizenship.

    I can’t find that link now, and of course the handbook might be prior to 1990 (when US law decided that there was no presumption of loss for swearing allegiance to another country).

    But I would like to track it down, if anyone knows it…

  14. @BirdPerson
    Could this be the handbook? There is a search function but that statement may have been updated/changed
    https://fam.state.gov/
    I am not sure if this may backfire, as they may say that if you thought you had already lost your US citizenship, you could have asked/informed them at that time and told them of the agents bullying.
    I am just looking at it from all angles.

  15. That’s the up to date one. I think under the ‘administrative assumption’ these days, no one would ask about the foreign passport.

    I know, there are many angles here. If I had a lot of money riding on this (which I don’t), I supposed I would pay for legal advice. But since the ‘worst’ which could happen to me is that I renounce instead, five years of tax returns and final form to walk away, I don’t want to go down that route.

    And please, no comments about the IRS coming after me. I am a financial plankton, and I want to sleep at night. In my own mind, I’m pretty confident that I’ll be left alone.

  17. BirdPerson:

    “ I think under the ‘administrative assumption’ these days, no one would ask about the foreign passport.”

    Don’t you get asked on the passport renewal form about whether you’ve become a citizen of a foreign country? It’s under Acts and Conditions on the current DS-82, but I believe there are different forms for various situations so maybe that’s not on all of them.

    If those questions were on the renewal form you completed, it seems you would have needed to supply a statement of explanation. Can you recall whether you supplied a statement of that kind, or were asked to do so?

  18. That looks like the more up to date statement on what I remember reading. I think as this was 2008 the argument would be that ‘administrative assumption’ was applied and he asked no questions. The tirade I suffered about offering a deed poll for my change of name (and hence my fear at asking any further questions about citizenship) might be considered immaterial.

    If anyone has tried to put together a case, citing the lack of requirement to inform the State Dept because of the 1996 amendment of the IRS code, I’d love to hear from you with some wording. I’m struggling to phrase this properly in my submission.

  19. @plaxy I filled in the details of my British passport in the US passport renewal form. I was NOT asked for any statement of explanation. The chap went ballistic when I went to the window with my US passport form and showed him the UK deed poll for change of name. To this day, I cannot understand why he shouted at me that I’d ‘changed your name in a way not recognised by US law.’ I do not exaggerate, he went on for several minutes in this vein, and I felt that I’d somehow broken some US law.

    I felt very threatened. So when I handed over my UK passport, and all he said was, ‘I’ll get this photocopied,’ I wasn’t really in a fit state to open up any further dialogue. I had fully expected to be told that I’d relinquished US citizenship when I’d taken on UK. I now wish that I’d somehow found the courage to open up that dialogue but, as I’ve already stated, he’d already made me feel like a criminal.

    Can you give me a link to DS-82?

  20. @Plaxy
    The US passport renewal form has changed recently. It used to just ask if you had applied for another citizenship, only recently it asks for a statement of explanation if/why you have taken another citizenship. My US/UK son recently applied for an Irish passport (through his grandfather) to enable him to work in Europe. His British one no longer gives him that right after March 2019!
    He just stated it was for ease of Job applications in the EU.

  23. Hmm. I’m certain this was NOT on my application in 2008. But I’ll include in my submission that I note the up to date passport application form asks this information, yet I was NOT asked about this in 2008.

  24. If I wanted to make a case for relinquishment despite having renewed US passport, I would base it on the injustice of US law which treats renewal of US passport as evidence of intent to retain US citizenship, while at the same time requiring a US passport for entry to US.

  25. “The US passport renewal form has changed recently. It used to just ask if you had applied for another citizenship, only recently it asks for a statement of explanation if/why you have taken another citizenship”

    Ah, that explains it.

    They presumably changed it in order to make it harder (in future) to argue for backdated relinquishment.

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