Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Participants will need to provide their e-mail address (real or fake) and an alias. The only written rule is that participants must use a same alias each time they post (and not “anonymous” or derivatives thereof).
Bear in mind that any responses that you get from participants is peer-to-peer help, and it is not intended as a replacement for professional advice. Also, the Isaac Brock Society provides this disclaimer: neither the Society nor any of its members are professionals. We offer our advice here only in friendship and we recommend that our readers seek professional advice if they need it.
If you wish to receive an e-mail notification of comments, check the box to that effect when making your first comment.
NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
True, I do tend to assume that any money paid to the IRS by a long-term non-resident is a “penalty” by virtue of there being nothing received in return.
In Canada, we were advised in no uncertain terms that pfics held inside aregistered retirement saavings plan should not be reported separately. ( i e report the plan totals only)
If you feel obliged to report your ISA, you should treat it as a savings account. No income taken out- nothing to report. Otherwise you are in for a world of hurt and expense
Only tell them what they already know- even if you are a vicar.
If anyone’s interested, I found the US State Dept handbook ‘Developing a Loss of Nationality Case’ on line: https://fam.state.gov/searchapps/viewer?format=html&query=foreign%20passport&links=FOREIGN,PASSPORT&url=/FAM/07FAM/07FAM1220.html#M1227
I agree with Portland.
Portland, I have an e-mail for you that now bounces back. Would you kindly use mine to contact me? I’m in the midst of the process… again.
Duchesse I cant find your old emails I’ll ask Calgary 411 to give you a good address
“The Statute of limitations is three years from filing.”
Not always. Here are the two cases where the SOL is three years from some date in the year when the return was due or was filed:
1. If there was no fraud; or
2. If the IRS is the one committing fraud.
If the IRS alleges that the filer is the one committing fraud, there is no SOL. If the filer can get a court to accept jurisdiction and the court finds that the filer didn’t commit fraud, then the filer “only” has legal expenses. If the filer can’t get a court to accept jurisdiction then a different meaning of SOL applies and legal expenses just get added to it.
@Norman
There are always exceptions but we have to keep things in perspective here. It really comes down to, if it is worth it in time and expense to chase up filers where the irs are unable to collect anyway.
The IRS considered it worth the time and expense to chase up filers when the IRS thought it couldn’t collect but the IRS was the one committing fraud and the IRS needed to frame the frame the filers for fraud. If I’d known not to try to comply in the first place, they’d have had a harder time trumping up accusations.
Sounds more like you chased the IRS than the other way round!
Norman, it sounds like you had a very difficult time with the IRS. Your comments are often difficult to understand. Perhaps it would be useful (for the rest of us) if you would give us a clear summary of what really happened. Hopefully we can learn something from your experience.
It’s a one-off, a strange outlier, and it happened a very long time ago. But yes it leads to many strange references that are either not relevant to the discussion at hand or likely to sidetrack and confuse the people who come here seeking advice.
How do you know it’s a one-of or an outlier? Because other victims haven’t bothered to take the time to make themselves known to you?
“Now it’s August 2018.
What is the chance that you’ll get a letter from the IRS regarding your 2013 (or prior year) tax return?
Pretty small, right?”
Did the lies concern US-source income? Did the lies reduce tax liability significantly?
If the answer to both questions is yes, it might be possible to file an amended return along with payment plus interest (plus penalties for late payment?)
If the answer to the first question is no, the IRS is unlikely to know whether the information given is true or false. If the answer to the second question is no, they’re unlikely to care.
IMO
@Nonomymous & JapanT & Norman
I can’t remember Norman’s saga, and if I’m honest, I found it hard to follow at the time, although I beleive it still irks him as I am sure it would do to most of us.
Didn’t Norman travel to the US and challenge the IRS in court? How many of us would do that now? That is why as upsetting it is to him, I don’t beleive it has much relevence to most of us now. Norman has a great satirical turn of phrase but perhaps he will remind us again in simple terms the course of events and how they are relevent to us now.
@JapanT
Whatever it was, it was a long time ago and to my knowledge nothing similar has been reported here. But more to the point, the commentary is rarely relevant or helpful when people arrive with questions about renunciation or compliance in the present day.
BirdPerson:
This service might be very useful for a lot of UK USCs, if the company handles the unravelling of UK stocks-and-shares ISAs.
The website says:
Is this the case for ISAs? Considering that (if I understand correctly) an ISA is not itself a mutual fund but is only a wrapper for investments, each of which may or may not meet the PFIC criteria.
Do ISA providers issue statements in the level of detail needed to identify which funds are PFICs and which are not, plus individual transaction histories for each? Anyone know?
I had a look at some of my Isa statements and basically just reports quantity, price, value. and new investments made by price and any transactions to cover fees. Some investment houses might report differently. Isa should be left off the PFIC list in any case because it’s not reported under Fatca and many of these things are inventions of accountants. they fuel the rules around the PFIC and trusts. The IRS themselves were clueless to a lot of this. and all this stuff got unearthed during Fatca and made even worse than the original purpose. the world has moved on. about time the US tax code did too.
@plaxy
“Now it’s August 2018.
What is the chance that you’ll get a letter from the IRS regarding your 2013 (or prior year) tax return?
Pretty small, right?”
Did the lies concern US-source income? Did the lies reduce tax liability significantly?
If the answer to both questions is yes, it might be possible to file an amended return along with payment plus interest (plus penalties for late payment?)
If the answer to the first question is no, the IRS is unlikely to know whether the information given is true or false. If the answer to the second question is no, they’re unlikely to care.
The answer is “No!” to both questions.
The lies are of the following nature: interest income from Canadian bank account totally between $50 and $100 were not reported on 1040 line 8a. Had they been reported, the exemption (or the standard deduction) would have nullified the taxable income (with lots of room to spare). At this point it seems silly to file some amended returns.
Damned! I tried some html tags to highlight a quote in my previous post and it did not work!!
Plaxy, how do you create those cute quotations with a gray background?
I’m a Canadian DIY filer preparing for my exit tax year, 2018.
Question concerns forms for 2018.
Do I need to file •both• 8938 (Statement of Foreign Financial Assets) and Form 8854? (Because of my RRSP, I’m over the 200k asset threshold specified here: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/corporations/do-i-need-to-file-form-8938-statement-of-specified-foreign-financial-assets.)
For many years (including 2017) I filed Form 8891, now discontinued. Many thanks for your help!
“At this point it seems silly to file some amended returns.”
Couldn’t agree more. Sleep peacefully.
“Plaxy, how do you create those cute quotations with a gray background?”
Blockquote. 😉
The html tags permitted on this blog are listed just below the comment box.
“I had a look at some of my Isa statements and basically just reports quantity, price, value. and new investments made by price and any transactions to cover fees.”
Thanks. What I thought.
Duchesse – In case it’s useful, here’s a link to a Phil Hodgen piece on RRSPs.
https://hodgen.com/rrsps-and-the-certification-test-a-solved-problem/
@Duchesse
Here is my two cents as another person preparing to file my last return.
Yes, if you are over the threshold you must file form 8938. The RRSPs are declared in a different section than regular bank accounts. Your RRSPs must also be declared on the FBAR.
Form 8854 is the expatriation form that is filed with your last return and is unrelated to form 8938. To answer your question, yes you must file both forms.
I thought that form 8891 was phased before 2017?
@ plaxy: Not super useful, but thanks anyway. I’m in a different situation.
Filed good old 8891 for many years. (This year I failed to file Form 8965-Health Care Exemption and got an IRS letter requesting it, so that joins the Form-a-thon.)
So question is, for final year, 2018, do I file 8938 and 8854, or just 8854 since it lists assets-which include my RRSP?