Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
PPS
You are not alone, we have all been through this in our different ways
In fact there was another C of E lady priest called Rev Suzie on Brock who renounced a few years ago. I think her church was somwhere around Walton on Thames. Maybe you can contact her for some advice and succour.
@BirdPerson
If you wish to contact RevSuzie you can ask the administrator to pass on your email address.
If you decide to renounce I would seriously take heed of Portland and Watcher’s advice re ISAs. Ethics does not enter into it, the IRS are an unethical agency and act as a law unto themselves. They are out to collect in any way possible. You will eventually pay tax on these funds where they were earned, in your country of residence and citizenship.
Great idea re Revd Suzie!
Actually, ironically, the ISA is free of tax in the UK. It was supposed to help me in retirement. The value is laughably small, around £30K with dividends (reinvested) of £1000pa. And I’ve already told the tax advisor about it.
However, by renouncing now, I can file 2013 and 2014 to make up to my five years. And the ISA was under the US$25,000 value in those years.
I do firmly believe it is unethical to tax a person who has not lived in that country for over 30 years. Even worse that it happens to accidental Americans!
@BirdPerson I’m with you on the tax thing. I renounced because I saw no reason why I should pay tax to a country I hadn’t lived in for over 40 years. Didn’t know anything about having to file US taxes until FATCA reared its ugly head. But mostly it was because when I thought about it, I realised I wasn’t really American any more. Most of my life had been in the UK and I was British, not American. My views weren’t American, my attitudes weren’t American, my beliefs weren’t American. They were British. It was a bit of a shock because I’d always considered myself as American first and British second. Turned out that I was wrong, but didn’t realise that until push came to shove.
Medea–Yes! When I visit the USA now, I feel like a tourist. When I come back to the UK, I know I’m home.
This whole CBT thing has made me realise that I want to belong to just one country, to just have the one loyalty. So I am renouncing my US citizenship, but I’m also now committing 100% to my British.
When people ask me, ‘Where are you from?’ I’ve said ‘I was born in the USA, but I’m British now.’ I can’t remember when I started to say that, but I know I’ve been saying so for years.
Funny aside–I write urban fantasy novels with a Church of England female priest as the main character. Reviewers like to say how wonderfully British it is, in language and humour. If that doesn’t prove something…
@BirdPerson, similar story. When I first moved to the UK people asked are you from the US/Canada/Australia? As the years went by the question changed to which part of the UK are you from? Funnily enough, it’s never the part of the country I’m actually in at the time. If I’m in London/South they think it’s northwest or southwest. If I’m up north then they think it’s southwest or London. Weird, but at least I’ve made it into the country.
Actually, some people still pick up the American accent. But I’ve often been asked ‘Are you from Canada?’ and ‘Are you from Ireland?’
Non Brits always think I sound British, including Americans.
@BirdPerson
I am also British born and educated but also with Swiss citizenship ancestry. I became a Naturalized US citizen after a one year sabbatical led to a 30 year permanent position there. I naturalized out of convenience but had never really felt at home there and retired back in Switzerland, with frequent visits to the UK. I was always US tax compliant as I knew all about CBT but the Swiss banks became very difficult , rejecting US persons. It was an easy decision to renounce and a big relief from the chains of US citizenship.
I could have claimed German citizenship through my parents (they both immigrated separately to the USA from Germany). I grew up in a German speaking household and I’m fluent in the language. But Swiss German–well, that’s a whole different matter!
I have two Swiss friends coming over for a week in September. We’re going to stay in a cottage in Cornwall, only 150 metres from the beach. They are so excited about that!
I shall focus on looking forward to a week in beautiful Cornwall on the other side of this mess.
When queried, I like to claim I have an Alastair Cook accent!
Remember him? He always an interesting perspective.
I am from a French speaking Canton, Swiss German is a mystery to me too!
My Swiss friends and I went to Canada last year on holiday. In Montreal, they used their Swiss French quite a bit, and found the Canadian French ‘rather strange’!
All this talk about Switzerland…
It was during a sabbatical in Switzerland that I first heard about FATCA and that I became very nervous about the fact that my dual-citizen wife (Canada-USA) had not file her 1040 for the previous 18 years. I had always known that she was supposed to file but we figured that it was okay not to file since there would have been no due taxes anyway. But, as I said, with FATCA I became increasingly nervous. When we came back to Canada, I started to look into her options (do nothing, quiet disclosure, streamlined,…) and eventually we opted for quiet disclosure (which was quite simple, really). Now believe it or not, she late-filed 19 years of 1040s and 6 years of FBARs. (She is not to be blamed for that; I am the crazy person who did all the forms and who mailed the one-inch thick envelope via some sort of Registered Mail or something like that). For the last 4 years, she’s been filing on time every year. We have never heard a thing from the IRS. She has now requested an appointment for renunciation at the Quebec City consulate. Anyway, that’s my Switzerland connection. Back then, I learned a lot from the English Forum Switzerland (at http://www.englishforum.ch).
And by the way, BirdPerson, you can tell your Swiss friends that I thought their French was “rather strange”! 🙂
It sounds like someone who thought they relinquished, who already has a US visa stamp in the passport of the citizenship they use, and whose sole reason for obtaining a US passport was not wilful but was due to being threatened by a US government official, should qualify for backdated relinquishment. Use the currnent non-US passport but bring the passport with a US visa stamp (even if it’s expired) and bring the receipt for payment of relinquishment fee in case the border guard asks for them.
@BirdPerson
I believe it is you who I sent here from FB. I’m glad you came and have found some of the answers you were looking for. Best of luck.
In 2011 the US embassy in Tokyo was supposed to conduct 3 interviews but they skipped the first one for me. At the actual first interview (which was supposed to be second), they offered to save me the $450 renunciation fee if I said I intended to relinquish US citizenship when I took Canadian citizenship. I was the one who said I couldn’t do that because I made a notarized declaration of my intent to keep US citizenship, continued filing US taxes (silly me) and voting absentee and renewing US passport.
Now I wonder why the room didn’t explode. An honest person and a US government official in the same room is like matter and antimatter.
@Formerpatriot
Yes, it was the Swiss UBS scandal that triggered this FATCA nightmare for all of us. Not content with waiting for clients to come to them to open secret accounts (legal in Switzerland) they greedily traveled to the US to court US investors there. A cd of names was given to the irs from an employee whistle blower who was subsequently imprisoned and had to sue the IRS for his bounty!
The Swiss started closing US person accounts back in 2011. I renounced in 2012 to save my bank account and pay my bills.
@FormerPatriot, that’s because the Swiss speak Swiss French. Don’t think the differences are as pronounced as between German and Swiss German, but there are definitely words the Swiss use that the French don’t. Septante, Huitante and Nonante are the ones that come mind immediately, being much easier ways to say 70 80 and 90 in French than the French way.
And yes the English Forum was also where I got a lot of my info from and posted a lot there myself too. Still do, though not just on FATCA related subjects.
@ND–I have filled out the form DS4079 as instructed by the London Embassy. In that I have clearly stated my belief that I relinquished citizenship back in 1993. We’ll see what happens at the interview. I fully expect to be told that I must renounce. As I am a financial plankton, I won’t face any exit tax, ‘just’ the cost of filing 5 years worth of tax returns and six years of FBARs and the final tax returns and exit form. I will have to take out a loan to pay for the renunciation fee and the tax advisor’s fees!
Gosh, that’s quick! Email received first thing this morning:
The following in-person final loss of citizenship appointment is confirmed for
Date: Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 1:45pm
I somehow convinced myself it was too early for a stiff drink.
@BirdPerson
Great news, enjoy your drink but save the champagne for the cln!
Oh, I might throw a party for the CLN! Maybe all British themed and we’ll sing ‘God Save the Queen’!
@Medea Fleecestealer, I never had problems with Swiss French but I can imagine that a French-speaking person visiting Quebec would have a hard time to understand older people out in the country side.
+++++++++++++++
This morning I filed 6 years of FBARs for my oldest son who renounced 2 weeks ago. The hardest part was getting all the financial information from him! 🙁
I used the “Did not know I had to file” on the first page.
Now moving on to my youngest son.
He was born in Canada with a Canadian father (me) and a US Citizen mother (my wife).
Shortly after his birth, we made what will probably turn out to be a $2350 mistake: we applied for and obtained US citizenship for him. At the time it seemed like a good idea. Now I regret it. He will turn 18 next year and he would like to open a TFSA (Tax Free Savings Account) at a Canadian online brokerage. To be compliant, he would have to deal with all sorts of filing requirements. I’m thinking he should renounce as soon as he turns 18. He would then file an 8854 and be done. He is a student with no income, so no need to file a 1040. On the other hand, if he keeps his US citizenship, he could go work anywhere in the USA when he graduates from college. I hesitate between the following:
A. Renounce as soon as he turns 18. I doubt he would ever want to move to the USA anyway. All his friends and family are here in Canada. There are plenty of job possibilities all across Canada.
B. Become 100% compliant. Renounce only a few years after college graduation when he knows for sure he does not want to go work in the USA. Of course that would be complicated if he opens a TFSA and buys ETFs. (8621, 3520, 3520-A nightmare). By then the $2350 renunciation fee might have doubled!
C. Do not renounce. Do not file anything with the IRS or FBAR. Stay under the radar forever. Never renew his US passport. They’ll never know since he was born in Canada. That way we save $2350. And if 10 years from now he gets a great job in the USA, he can always become compliant at that point. Presumably the great job will come with a great salary and he can hire some professional cross-border lawyers to clean up his mess (and clean up his wallet).
Wow! I definitely vote for A!
A friend of mine might be an ‘Accidental American’–born in the UK to a British father and an American mother. They obtained a Social Security number for him some years ago. He used to boast to me about his dual citizenship. Now that I’ve told him about CBT, he’s trying to establish whether his mother lived long enough in the USA to pass citizenship on to him and his siblings. Like me, he’s a full time Christian minister, so very little financial assets. He could ill afford to either become compliant or to renounce. I don’t know if he’ll decide to try to stay under the radar.