Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Heidi wrote: “Another piece of advice is when offered by a merchant, always choose to be charged in the countries’ own currency where you make the transaction, NEVER in dollars.”
I did a test recently at the Raiffeisen cash machine in a Swiss train station. I used one UK Barclays debit card to withdraw 500 francs and selected “bill in CHF” and another UK Barclays debit card to withdraw another 500 francs 30 seconds later and selected “bill in GBP”. The amount billed in GBP came out as £3 more. I knew that already (The Points Guy said it) but I wanted to prove it for myself. Never again.
The only reason for all that cash is that our Swiss cantonal bank essentially fired us for being Swiss-American. We should have our PostFinance account up and running this week: they sent us a PIN and gizmo which one of us will collect from our Swiss flat in a few days. It’s like the olden days: lugging francs to the Post Office to pay the pink or orange payment vouchers at the bottom of utility bills that, in more civilised (read: pre-FATCA) days were paid by eBankking. (Hey, I remember when Swiss coins were made of real silver, just like dimes and some nickels. Probably Heidi does, too.)
GoneSoon
I grew up in the UK, but I remember silver sixpences and thruppeny bits of silver and nickle which my Swiss Grandma would put in our English Christmas pud!
@GoneSoon
I was also thrown out of our Swiss bank in 2012 for being American. I was still a resident of the US preparing to retire in my apt in Switzerland at that time no bank was interested in taking a non resident American, so they ‘kindly ‘ let me take all my money out in cash as I showed them that the account had always been declared on my then paper fbars. I renounced soon after I left the US, opened an account with my cln and then brought in my hoard of cash, they then had the audacity to ask where had all the money come from!!
Historians will tell you that the reasons for $5,000 & $10,000 bills which you used to be able to see at the Chase Manhattan Money Museum once at Rockefeller Center was to pay for real estate in cash. Switzerland has 1,000 franc notes. My sainted grandma (who left Switzerland rich at age 4 in 1917 but her actor father later lost most of his money in German investments) admired the way her co-citizens distrusted (as they did until
ApplePay was invented) credit and credit cards. Now the Swiss are headed towards the Swedish model. More’s the pity: the NSA and GCHQ and the IRS are watching. You do know about the “foreign credit card monitoring programme” of the IRS to catch tax cheats spending their foreign hoard that way.
@Gone Soon
How about credit cards issued overseas by overseas banks? Is the IRS able to track those? If so, how?
Exactly. They targeted Caribbean banks’ cards: John Doe summons to MC, VISA & Amex. Do a search engine query; if you have trouble finding it come back to me. I do research to eak out a living!
Ok, this is going to get strange. When first I came to Japan, my Credit Card (CC) issued by a non Japanese bank was accepted only at places that cater to tourists from overseas. So, I got a CC from the same company issued by a Japanese bank.
When making payments on my US issued CC became difficult due to mailing time, I tried to move the balance owed on my US CC to my Japanese CC so that I would no longer miss payments.
The US CC company told me it could not be done as the US and Japanese CC companies are different compsnies despite being the same CC.
Can the IRS get CC from Japanese issuers of “US” CCs?
@Japan T
Wildly improbable that Japan is a target. And 100% of credit card forex conversions, regardless of currencies (i.e. even JPY-KRW) are done in New York. A MC-VISA-Amex summons can get them all. But you are not the target so I don’t have an answer.
Thanks.
But still wonder who is the target of a “John Doe” summons?
@Japan T
IRS fishing expedition. They’ll be happy to settle for you. Or me. And subpoena our accounts. But hey, I’m outta here in a few weeks. Practising keeping my mouth shut in front of the consul,
Good on ya. Wish I could follow suit.
@Gone Soon
No claim for German citizenship based on ancestry. One would have to go back quite a few generations to find someone in my family tree who might have been German but changed the spelling of his name to hide it.
My family was in America before the US existed (1701).
No, I just got the hardship rule, because in the period between them raising the price to $2350 and them applying it to relinquishments they were apparently letting all US person’s have it.
The officer was definitely just living in a dream world in which the US is the center of the universe and the rest of the world had to ask permission from the US to do anything. There were many other things in what she said and how she acted that showed her disillusion was complete.
Actually, it was 1683 when my first ancestors came, 1701 was just this year the first one with my family name came over.
Unfortunately, I still had to pay the $2350 blood money, because my appointment was after they decided to try and deny me my human right to release myself from their ownership.
“Actually, it was 1683 when my first ancestors came, 1701 was just this year the first one with my family name came over.”
Paging Native Canadian, please add a comment here.
Hi, I’m an accidental American living in Israel. I arrived as a toddler, and never reported anything to the IRS. I don’t have any assets/connections in/to the USA.
One of my assets recently appreciated significantly in value, which if realized, will put my total assets above $2m.
I’m afraid that Israel’s tax agency will report my income to the IRS when I realize the profit.
I have a few questions:
1. I’ve read about the various FFTI/RBT/etc efforts, but what are in your opinion the chances of seeing real change, and when? Is there any progress being made at all?
2. Does Israel have a collection agreement with the IRS?
3. Is it the tax agency that does the reporting, or the bank? What kind of assets do they report?
4. If I renounce, is there any chance IRS will learn in the future about my past earnings? ie. do they get reports even after I’ve been issued a CLN?
Thank you so very much.
Welcome Ben
1. None whatsoever.
2. Yes they do.
https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/FATCA-Agreement-Israel-6-30-2014.pdf
3. See what the above says. They will report all accounts held by US citizens/Green Card holders.
4. No, not unless you decide to file to become compliant and finally file an 8854 form.
The main question is do you have an SSN (Social Security Number) from the US? Many parents applied for these when their children were born. If you don’t have one you’re in an even better position because the US/IRS doesn’t know squat about you. You can renounce and thumb your nose at them. Renounce and forget.
@ Ben and Medea
2. I thought that only 5 countries had collection agreements, ie France Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark & Canada, and even those countries will not collect if the US person is also a citizen of his resident country.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/11/01/dual-citizens-of-sweden-france-netherlands-denmark-canada-take-note-your-country-will-not-collect-for-the-u-s/
I only quickly scanned your link to the Israel agreement and as far as I can see the FATCA agreement posted only mentions financial. information exchange?
If you are a dual citizen from birth and are able to back file 5 yrs of tax returns and 6 fbars then you will not be subject to an exit tax.
Or you can renounce and not file anything and avoid travelling to the US.
There is no reason to avoid traveling to the US
Ben, the first question is- does your bank know where you were born?
They report year end balances and income of each reportable account
After you obtain a CLN and give a copy to the bank, there should be no further reporting.
First, thank you all for your answers!
Medea – are you saying there’s no progress *as of yet*, or no *chance* for a progress? i.e. is there anyone still working on it?
I haven’t applied for a SSN for myself, and don’t know if my parents have, will have to check.
Heidi – not a dual from birth.
Portland – I’m actually not sure if they know.
Besides the banks, does IRS get information from other sources, ie. like the tax agency itself?
Another question:
I served in the army here, and took an oath to the country. Does that count as an expatriation act? Are you aware of anyone succeeding in using this?
Ben There are people working on it the lawsuit in Canada might be resolved in our lifetime. France appears to beour best hope. Certainly don’t bank on any changes
If your bank doesn’t know, don’t tell them. If you don’t have a SS number, don’t rush to get one.
It’s the bank that initiates the reports. They are supposed to figure out who among their clients are US Persons. They send the account info to the Israeli gov. who in turn give it to the IRS. There is supposed to be reciprocity but that is just BS.
Rethe army. It’s only an expatriating act if you volunteered and if you were an officer. It’s a grey area.
Ben, I very much doubt anything’s going to happen to change the US tax system. Certainly not in the next few years. Republicans touted it here in Switzerland as part of their manifesto, but admitted it was only there as a vote catcher. Some attempts have been made, but been shot down.
If you have no SSN and your parents didn’t apply for one for you then the IRS doesn’t know you, plain and simple. You’re not in their system. So you could renounce, get a CLN to present to your bank and be done with it.
Yes, serving in a foreign military counts as an expatriating act so long as you haven’t done things like vote in US elections, filled in US tax returns, get a US passport, etc, since. Also being naturalised as an Israeli citizen would also count with the same proviso. Many people have succeeded with both these, though the fee for a relinquishment (slightly different from a renunciation) is unfortunately still the same – $2,350. It used to be free, but so many people were able to claim relinquishments that they brought in a fee for it.