Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Calgary – I think the gist is: If you renounce under duress such as FBAR/FATCA, can you demand the DOS to reinstate citizenship later if you inform them you renounced under duress? Would it stand up in court?
@Medea
2007 to 2012 for FBARs is logical and even supported by the instructions that say “the last 6 years”. My question is now focused on the Streamlined Questionnaire that still says “Since January 1, 2006 …”.
Does anybody have access to a tax expert? Does Roy Berg cross out 2006 and write in 2007 now?
Thanks, RMA.
I understand the gist. I was just giving my personal opinion on I would NEVER want MY CLN taken back, cancelled. I have 100% renounced and want nothing to do with the US, other than being able to be there in the US for one of my remaining siblings when the need arises. Not one penny of my hard-earned, invested and saved Canadian dollars do I want to benefit the USA. So, I see, I would not have been renouncing under duress, just out of disgust.
WhatAmI, so you have accounts outside your country of residence?
@Medea, I had signing authority over an account in the US that was moved to Canada in 2006. The move was forced by the US financial institution (apparently because of the Patriot Act, terrorist funding measures, etc) because the owner of the account, my father, had moved back to Canada. They insisted that they couldn’t allow him as a non-resident to keep funds in the US.
Since I maintain that I’m not even a USC, I don’t have to worry about any of this unless they refuse to back-date my CLN to 1973. I’m just doing my homework so I understand the options. Also, this particular question should be of interest to many Brockers here.
For the last week or three, every time I post here the refreshed page jumps back three pages. I have to go forward again to see that my post is there and OK.
Does anybody else have this problem?
I’m using Iceweasle (renamed Firefox) on Linux. I’ll test FireFox and IE on Windows.
@WhatAmI, it returns you to the last page you read. Just remove the page number from the url and you’ll be at the latest.
@SwissPinoy, What url where? I get this problem all the time, not only here, but on other sites as well.
@WhatAmI, yes I see your problem, particularly as it was during that year. The question is – if you say yes to question 5, no to 5a and yes to 5b and put down USA I wonder what the IRS will make of it? Presumably any taxes due were paid on it before you moved it to Canada.
Nope. This was the last page I read (see post to WhatAmI at 1.23pm) and yet I jumped back 4 pages after just posting my latest one. I’m confused.
@Medea Fleecestealer,
If the url in the address bar looks like this:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-29/#comments
…, then just trim off the end like this:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation
The last page read is probably being saved in the client cache, I’d guess.
No, mine only shows the second type and I always jump back.
OK, so it’s not just me who has the jump-back problem when posting.
I can’t swear to it, but I thought that it just started doing this recently and it used to be OK?
I’ve been trimming the URL, or pressing the browser back button followed by pressing the page refresh button, but this is tedious, especially when done on my smart phone.
@Medea
There are no unpaid taxes in either country. I still would want to see that 2006 has rolled off the questionnaire if I were in a position to have to enter that program.
@WhatAmI
You might want to review the 3rd video (Abby Deshman)…particularly at the 50 minute mark where discussion on the 1986 changes occured (explained by John Richardson’s comments) as this is relevant to you and me both…
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/12/24/fatca-fact-finding-forum-video-link/
The whole video was of interest to me as my accounts at TD Waterhouse were in fact frozen due to the items discussed in this video (fortunately I had a bank I could transfer my RRSP back to or else the impact would have been massive canadian taxation to liquidate an RRSP…as may be the case once FACTA is enforced in all banks)…I feel like I was the perfect poster boy for many of the points Allison Christians raised…
I won’t be able to watch the video until later today but I’m a bit confused. My understanding is that RRSPs are exempt from FATCA reporting.
Frozen account? How could that happen if no laws are in place yet?
@WhatAmI
Watch the video when you can…
My interpretation:
If one doesn’t sign the waiver to privacy, one’s account is frozen..if the account is frozen..you have no access to it’s funds …banking institutions will only provide the abitlity to liquidate..not run it…liquidation means immediate canadian taxation…
@WhatAmI
Frozen Account… As I explained in an earlier posting…my TD Waterhouse accounts were frozen…(hmmm maybe it was on another thread, where I explained how TD Waterhouse was registered in the USA and therefore WAS applying FATCA already…)
FIND THE PREVIOUS COMMENT HERE (VERY important information passed on by Benedict to Kevin Shoom re Canadian IGA FATCA negotiations): http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca/comment-page-30/#comment-423637
The latest and greatest on FBARs:
@Swisspinoy
Looks like an old Streamlined announcement that someone has regurgitated.
@Benedict Arnold be me
I guess I wasn’t subscribed to the FATCA thread. I’ve looked at it from time to time, but not recently. Sheesh, just when I was starting to sleep better…
I opened a TD Waterhouse account several years ago (for the Red Hat IPO, I think), but then never made any purchases. I transfered the cash back out shortly after, and it’s been empty ever since. Is this a problem? Should I close it?
@WhatAmI
One would think you wouldn’t have to close it…However you should consider the following…
If you make any trades in the TD Waterhouse account..although at the moment they are unaware..should they require an update ID (usually passport is becoming the norm now, every 5 years)..then you could find yourself trapped between having to sign a waiver (see video by Christians on that impact) and being locked into a position…
Not investment advice here…but logic…until you resolve the ? of US citizenship, you probably want to avoid any actions that would put you in jeopardy at a later date…you might avoid closing it, but also avoid using it until you resolve your issues…
@Benedict Arnold be me
I think I’ll just close it. I’ve never made an individual stock trade in my life (outside of employee stock purchase plans and stock options before I retired), so I don’t need the account.
New Hodgen blog post, re OVDI, expatriation, exit tax, etc.
http://hodgen.com/ovdi-opt-out-get-ou/
@WhatAmI
I just about fell off my chair this morning when I came across this…
Let me refresh my earlier comments about the Calgary Consular Rep having told me that the clause regarding naturalization in another country was NOT valid for a MINOR (as mine was established at the age of 10 in 1967)…and therefore I could not use that clause (for anyone else reading this…remember we are talking an act of expatriation pre- Oct 10,1978) – she did eventually recant, but only after my insistance (I had not seen this letter, the wording I saw in “recent” references had a vague comment about which could be interpreted in many ways dissimilar to this one , or after the age of 18 AND as you will note in her email reply to me at the bottom)
I refer you to this letter posted by Petros on Feb 23, 2012 referencing/displaying a “letter from Consulate General July 25, 1980” provided by LadyBug…(my sincere thanks to both)
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/02/23/letter-from-consulate-general-july-25-1980/
It clearly says:
Section 349(a)(1) of the Immigration and Nationality Act reads as follows:
“From and after the effective date of this Act a person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by —
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application, upon an application filed in his behalf by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, or through the naturalization of a parent having legal custody of such person: PROVIDED, That nationality shall not be lost by any person under this section as the result of the naturalization of a parent or parents while such person is under the age of twenty-one years, or as the result of a naturalization obtained on behalf of a person under twenty-one years of age by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, unless such person shall fail to enter the United States to establish a permanent residence prior to his twenty-fifth birthday:…”
My Observations:
1) This was dated July 25th 1980 (proof positive that the Oct 10, 1978 ruling was not practiced)
2) It clearly states that a parent CAN apply for foreign naturalization on a childs behalf and that constitutes an expatriating act…
3) It references the 25th birthday as a marker for failure to establish permanent residence in the US.
4) it clearly states “That nationality shall not be lost by any person under this section as the result of the naturalization of a parent or parents while such person is under the age of twenty-one years” thus confirming my contention that at age 21 it was lost…
I intend to use this as supporting evidence that in the 60’s and 70’s…a Minor could in fact trigger the Expatriating Act …
Here is the wording of the email I received from CALGARY in my request to arrange a Relinquishment. notice where I bolded
You should bring the following items to your appointment:
· Evidence of your United States citizenship. This must be presented at the time of your interview.
· Any U.S. passports (valid or expired)
· If applicable, your Consular Report of Birth Abroad, Certificate of Citizenship/Naturalization.
· You need to present documentary evidence of your naturalization in Canada bearing the date your naturalization took place.
· You need to provide the wording to the oath taken when you were employed by the BC provincial government and the date the oath was taken. (As you were a minor when you acquired your Canadian citizenship, that would not be considered an expatriating act).
@WhatAmI
I forgot to add this part from that same Letter LadyBug provided…
If you fail to reply to this letter within sixty days of the date of this letter your silence will be considered to mean that you intended to relinquish your United States citizenship by your action in obtaining voluntary naturalization in Canada. In that event a final determination will be made that you voluntarily expatriated yourself under the provisions of Section 349(a)(1) of the Immigration and Nationality Act with the intention to relinquish your United States citizenship.