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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. @plaxy
    He has a ssn and a US passport, they will have his address at the embassy when he renounces and gets his cln. It is relatively simple to file the first section of the 8854, state O tax owed, state net worth under 2,000,000, hey presto, all legal, have fed the dog and can sleep at night.

  2. Heidi – “He has a ssn and a US passport, they will have his address at the embassy when he renounces and gets his cln. ”

    Of course. So what? USCs who renounce US citizenship are not fugitives from justice. Obviously the Dept of State needs the address in order to send the CLN.

    But I agree, as I’ve said, that there’s no need to worry about the 8854. File it or don’t file it, whatever suits. Nothing will happen either way.

  3. Plaxy
    I am just a bit cautious about advising to do nothing, just in case it comes back to bite them, but I guess that could happen either way! So I just give the facts and then it’s their call.

  4. I would like to encourage renouncing USCs to stand up for their rights as non-USCs, right from the moment of taking the oath.

    From that moment, the oath-taker is free of US citizenship and has no obligation to give the US any information about his/her income and assets.

    But it’s up to each person to decide, absolutely. No danger, either way. They’re no longer USCs once they’ve renounced, and the US has no power to hurt them.

  5. @Patrick
    Hi Patrick, I have 2 question, just out of geneal interest.

    1)
    Did your Italian bank give you any other option other than renouncing and presenting a CLN, like just proving to them that you are U.S. tax compliant. (If you were able too)

    2)
    How do you know that you don’t owe any U.S. taxes? You have no income over the filing threshold, that is before using the FEIE because in order to claim the FEIE it is my understanding that you need to file.

    Just trying to understand your situation a bit more.

  6. “Did your Italian bank give you any other option other than renouncing and presenting a CLN, like just proving to them that you are U.S. tax compliant. (If you were able too)“

    Italy is a Model 1 IGA country. The Model 1 IGA doesn’t allow banks to demand proof of US tax compliance.

    “Just trying to understand your situation a bit more.”

    Why?

    Just trying to understand why you’re asking these questions.

  7. @plaxy

    Because it might just help me and or others to make more educated decisions if they seem to be in the same situation as Patrick. That is if we know the situation. In order to know the situation one sometimes needs to ask questions.

    I hate to assume things. My 11th grade English teacher had a remark about assuming things. I just can’t remember it off hand.

    It’s like my grandfather used to say “You can always ask any question, as long as you are not afraid of the answer.” 😉

  8. “it might just help me and or others to make more educated decisions if they seem to be in the same situation as Patrick. That is if we know the situation. In order to know the situation one sometimes needs to ask questions.”

    It’s better to ask questions referring to your own situation, rather than questioning others to share information which they haven’t volunteered.

  9. “It’s better to ask questions referring to your own situation, rather than questioning others to share information which they haven’t volunteered.”

    That’s why we all have three possibilities when asked an either inappropriate or uncomfortable question.
    1) We can give an honest answer
    2) We can lie
    3) We can politely say it is none of their business

  13. “we all have three possibilities when asked an either inappropriate or uncomfortable question.”

    But why do you want to ask inappropriate questions?

    If you want to ask questions about renouncing US citizenship, fire away, mentioning as much or as little as you wish concerning your own situation.

  14. I hope nobody “wants” to ask inappropriate questions, but sometimes you only find out that question is inappropriate after you’ve asked it. As long as you ask for their forgivness i see no harm.

  15. A safe rule of thumb is not to ask personal questions. 🙂

    Do you want to ask a question about renouncing US citizenship?

  16. Thanks for the wise advice. I will take it to heart.
    Sometimes I just wish I had more than just 2 thumbs. 🙂

    I think for the time being it is better for me to go back into hover mode.

    The last thing I want is for somebody to think I am giving them the………….

  17. Lol – or worse – the tax compliance industry inquisition. 🙂

    To comment generally on your question about FEIE: yes, IRS rules say that you have to file in order to claim FEIE. But you don’t have to file to claim tax credits for tax you’ve already paid on your earnings. And you also don’t have to file if your income is below the filing threshold. Note that income exempt by treaty is not included as gross income.

    So there are several reasons a USC might not owe US tax – not just FEIE.

  18. I’m curious. Can anyone tell me how one deals with the form 8854 if they are a dual at birth and tax compliant? Does one need to still calculate their total wealth and to prove somehow that they are dual at birth citizens, or do they just take your word on it?

  19. “To comment generally on your question about FEIE: yes, IRS rules say that you have to file in order to claim FEIE. But you don’t have to file to claim tax credits for tax you’ve already paid on your earnings. And you also don’t have to file if your income is below the filing threshold. Note that income exempt by treaty is not included as gross income.

    So there are several reasons a USC might not owe US tax – not just FEIE.”

    EXACTLY!!!

    That’s why I asked the question. 🙂

  20. BB – I would think that no proof of dual-from-birth status is required if a person was born outside the US. They can tell from the place of birth plus the country’s citizenship policy.

    I believe the 8854 instructions say all who renounced in the preceding year must complete the balance sheet but estimates can be used. Makes no sense of course.

  22. Good question BB.
    I would say that If you were to ask 10 people that same question 5 will say you need to calculate your wealth and the other 5 would say no. I would calculate exactly as possible first for myself and then if I am sure I am under the threshold I would list it just to make them happy. If I am above then I’m not sure what I would do. I am tax and FBAR compliant and don’t owe any U.S. taxes due to the FEIE. I still have 2 digit years to go before retirement and no longer able to use FEIE, so I’m hoping that CBT will be history by then.

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