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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  2. I completely understand and agree with TDOTT. If I were forced to renounce I would have to become compliant with the IRS and submit my taxes etc but would at least be exempt from the exit tax as a non-covered expat (unless I failed to vertify my tax filing) .

  3. @The Mom,

    I’m curious, if you lived near the consulate such that multiple visits were easy to do, do you think you could have convinced them to submit your relinquishment to DC to see if they might accept it?

    @Whatami,

    Oh, yes, I would have fought tooth and nail. The airfare and renunciation fee set us back $1,200. I am still strongly considering arguing with DOS, but by mail, from the comfort of my own home.

  4. @bubblebustin, Canada recognized me as a citizen in 1967, when my parents brought me back to Canada to live as a baby. The document that has always meant the most to me is my Canadian Reg. of Birth Abroad, 1967. I didn’t get a birth certificate (US) until 2008, when I applied for my one and only passport (Canadian). And in ridiculous Form Nation fashion, *I* could not purchase my birth certificate, my FATHER had to apply for it. I was 40+ years old, and was not allowed to apply for it.

  5. @the Mom
    The fact that you were a baby makes sense, as before 2009, you would have had to been registered as Canadian before reaching the age of 2. Changes in 2009 made it retroactive to birth in most cases.

  6. I still haven’t figured out if I will need to file FBAR for 2013 (assuming I relinquish before the end of the year).

    I understand I will have to file the 1040 for the first part of the year, the 1040NR for the post-relinquishment part of the year, and the 8854 for financial status at date of expatriation. (Someone please correct me if this is not true.) But I haven’t found the information on the FBAR.

    Should I be asking this on a different thread?

    Thanks

  7. Shunrata. You won’t need to file a 1040NR after you relinquish unless you have US source income. It doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference whether you file a fbar for 2013 or not. Ask yourself-wtf are they going to do if you don’t? They won’t be all that concerned with you.

  8. @Duke, thanks for the answer – no I don’t have US source income. So it’s only the 1040 up to the date of relinquishment and then the 8854?

    I figured as much re the FBAR – as you said, what are they going to do with it? But don’t want anything to come back and bite me.

    I have filed US returns consistently and was never paranoid until I started hearing the stories about the IRS ripping into kids’ college funds… 🙁

  9. Shunrata. That will be more than enough. They won’t be coming after you or your children’s college funds. To a large extent, they will only have time and resources for wealthy homelanders; not for minnows who live offshore. OZ is a long way.

  10. Shunrata, technically I believe you should file a final FBAR for 2013 covering the period up until you relinquish/renounce. I’ve got to file my final one next year along with the 8854 form to cover up to the beginning of March when I renounced. Of course, I’m playing catch-up because I’ve never file US returns in my life, but the outstanding years were sent off recently and then it’s just the FBAR and 8854 next time. I don’t have any US income so haven’t needed to file any 1040 forms.

  11. Sunrata, I agree with Medea. The FBAR is an easy document to do yourself. If I were you, I would do that one last one for 2013, covering the period up until the date your relinquish or renounce. (That’s just what I would do — because my risk tolerance is too low.) You sound strong and understanding the processes, are doing fine and you will get through this.

  12. Thanks you for your replies Medea Fleecestealer and pacifica777. I suspect that her (and my) goose is cooked as although she has another nationality from birth her passport has been used in the past before it expired.I will follow with renewed interest. The issue of not having lived in the US for 10 years prior to the age of 18 1/2 helps a bit, but the tax declaration is unavoidable as far as I can see.

  13. @David, if she has her other nationality from birth, then I don’t think relinquishment is possible. I too had two nationalities from my birth so I renounced. If she’s used a US passport past the age of 18 1/2 then that too would probably rule out a relinquishment.

    @Shunrata, yes, providing your finances are simple the FBAR is easy to do. You just have to give details of the amount in each account and which bank, their address, etc. You can see the form here:

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf

    Don’t worry about the number of pages, you only need to fill in those that apply to you. As I am a co-signatory to my OH’s accounts I only needed to fill in pages 1 and 3. In fact from this month you can only e-file FBAR’s and they can’t be done by tax preparers because of that. But if the combined total of all your accounts come to less than $10,000 equivalent then you don’t need to file a FBAR for 2013.

  14. @shunrata
    I caught up with the US tax returns by filing for on time for 2012 and back-filing 2006-2011 for both 1040s and Fbars (like Medea I had no idea I had to file) . For 2013 I will file the 1040 and the Fbar up to the date of renunciation. The 8854 will go off asap. It was a huge relief to get all the 7 years sent off, thanks to much encouragement and help from many here at IBS. I used track and trace and all I know is they have been delivered. I do not plan to use any more energy and worry to check how the processing is going. Maybe all my weeks of effort are gathering dust in some vast filing cabinet – all I need to know is I have all the receipts for delivery printed out. I had to do all the returns and Fbars myself (both for me and others) so April and May were not kind months for us.

  15. @Shunrata, yes definitely send all paperwork recorded delivery/registered post so you can keep track of when it’s delivered. That way you can track it and when they’re delivered you can print off a copy of the tracking record from either the USPS website or you own postal service if they offer an on-line tracking service. I made copies of both the USPS and SwissPost details so I have them in case there’re any arguments about late delivery. One package arrrived a few days before the FBAR deadline, but the other only just made it. FBAR’s have to be delivered by the 30th June each year, but because the 30th fell on a Sunday the last effective date for delivery was Friday the 28th.

    Mind you, by supposedly only being able to e-file now delivery dates are sort of obsolete. Of course, whether the system works properly or can be used by those living outside the US is still to be discovered. But I read there was going to be a $500 penalty if you continue to paper file. And you still have to e-file your FBAR’s by the 30th June.

  17. I question how we can still be “US taxable persons” up to the date we give formal NOTICE of our relinquishing act, rather than on the day we formally perform the actual relinquishing act. We either are citizens or we are not. We either had intent to relinquish, or not.

    As the author notes (*see quote below) sourced from the article above, the US assertion that we are still US citizens until we give them formal notice of the event may not even stand up to scrutiny – it is merely convenient for the US IRS, Treasury and State Department to assert. And the limited number of renunciation/relinquishment appointment slots offered – which is controlled entirely by the US, means that they can constrict the pace and timing of relinquishments at will, merely by decreasing the available appointments and dragging out the process (as some consulates and the Ottawa embassy have done). Did the Supreme Court envision that egregious barrier to our legal and human right?

    The CLN is dated to the relinquishing act right? That act is a legal, verifiable and factual event – with robust proof in the case of naturalizing as a citizen of another country – and we alone know what our intent was.

    *”….For the moment, relinquishment triggers the same exit tax as renunciation – the IRS computes tax due as of the delivery of the notice of relinquishment, not the date of the expatriating act. I wonder if there isn’t a case against that, in support of backdating. In any event, relinquishment reduces bureaucratic hassle, eliminates the oath requirement (no good feeling there!), and saves the $450 fee, so I imagine its popularity will increase…..”
    http://opiniojuris.org/2013/07/03/this-july-4th-exploring-paths-away-from-citizenship/

  18. That was a good read.

    Besides the theme of US Citizens Abroad are breaking the bonds of being nothing but US chattel, another thing stood out for me that has been in question at Isaac Brock:

    For the moment, relinquishment triggers the same exit tax as renunciation – the IRS computes tax due as of the delivery of the notice of relinquishment, not the date of the expatriating act. I wonder if there isn’t a case against that, in support of backdating. In any event, relinquishment reduces bureaucratic hassle, eliminates the oath requirement (no good feeling there!), and saves the $450 fee, so I imagine its popularity will increase.

    In other words, the CLN from the Department of State is backdated to the expiration date, but IRS has its own rules! Is this correct?

    Oh, the censored thoughts in my head.

  20. @Badger and @Calgary,

    That was a good read. Looking at my CLN (based on an expatriating act from 1972), in the upper right corner there is a stamp stating it was approved in DC in June, 2013. In the lower left corner the seal is placed on the April date of my 2nd appointment at the consulate. However, in the actual ‘body’ of the document , it states the ‘relinquishment’ is the result of the expatriating act performed in 1972.
    So as you said Badger, how can one still be an American after that date when you performed the ‘dirty deed’. Ie the relinquishing act.
    We have also had more than one legal opinion that there is no tax form obligation for those of us who relinguished pre 2004.
    Of course we must not forget who we are dealing with here – a group who think of themselves as ‘almighty’, they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. After all they are the greatest country in the world!!!

  21. I intend to go to calgary ab to renounce. I’ve looked at their website and can find no information about who to contact for details, or even how to talk to a human for details.

    Has anyone out there renounced in calgary, and if so, how did you make initial contact w/ the consulate?

    Please and thank-you, and my apologies if this is the wrong place to post such a question

  25. klawww50,

    My husband, my daughter and I renounced in Calgary last year. Our Calgary reports and others are documented in the Consulate Directory Report found at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/. There is a vast amount of information what to expect, the forms needed, etc.

    There are available appointments shown for Notarial Services July to the beginning of October 2013 under American Citizen Services. Only parts of certain days are set aside for renunciation and relinquishment appointments. We did all of our beforehand back and forth with email: Calgary-ACS@state.gov

    Calgary is very efficient and very respectful. Good luck.

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