Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@allou, the social security number remains valid. No TIN is needed. That’s what the IRS told me.
So far, I haven’t seen any documentation stating that former Americans have to file FBARs.
@ Shunrata,
I think a written notice of intent sounds good, as Medea points out you’ll have a permanent record of the e-mail. Also if the consulate is not familiar with s. (1) relinquishments, it gives time to straighten it out in advance. I’d keep the message very short. Eg, once you receive notice of the date of your Australian citizenship ceremony, write the consulate something like, “I will natauralise as an Australian citizen on August 5th, 2013, with the intent of simultaneously relinquishing my US citizenship, according to INS 349(a)(1). I would like to book an appointment to apply for a CLN based on this.” and you can ask for the forms as Medea suggested and/or what supporting documents they’ll want (this stuff varies a bit from place to place).
There’s a link to the DoS manual on relinquishment (and related DoS manuals) on page 4 of the Consulate Report Directory – also links to the required forms (page 7) and the text of INS 349(a) (page 8). Also there’s quite a few (maybe 20) relinquishment stories in the Consulate Report Directory, which can provide you some background on this. My general feeling with unfamiliar consulates is don’t assume they’ll be combative, the worst scenario likely is they’re confused about s.(1)s. As a rule, DoS doesn’t have an axe to grind about this (Ottawa was an exception, but they got fixed) but some consulates don’t seem to know much about relinquishments. So, make sure you do 🙂 Actually even dealing with the more-common renunciation, especially if dealing with a consulate that doesn’t have an established track record, it’s important that one has knowledge of how things are supposed to proceed.
I’ve seen on their websites that Canberra and Melbourne refer to two visits for renunciation being mandatory. FWIW, it’s mandatory only because they made up the rule – it is not required by US law or DoS procedure. In any event, there should be only one visit required for relinquishment because you are, as you commented above, simply reporting that you have already expatriated yourself – there’s nothing to “think over.”
A question (perhaps a bit naive) if anyone might be able to help: my wife was born in the US but left at the age of 5. Does she have to renounce citizenship and jump through the tax hoops even though for all intents and purposes that happened many years ago (her passport is expired and in her maiden name) ?
Thanks in advance…
Short answer David is yes. Does she hold another nationality or does she plan to get one?
Hi IBSociety!
first time poster here, although I have been following this great online resource for awhile now. Regular contributors to this site, you deserve a major pat on the back, you have made our plight that much more manageable!
My Question: Is there a way to determine whether the US govt has a record of an expired US passport? A database somewhere, or a hotline to call..
You see, based on all the criteria that would allow me to relinquish, and even back-date to the mid 1980’s, is my brief moment of weakness way back in 1997 when I applied for, and was granted, a US passport (was told by border official during a vacation: “born in US, thou must enter US with a US passport. Get one!”). Used it a couple times, most recently in 2003. Otherwise, I have not lived, not worked (no SSN), not filed tax, not voted, nor have any ties to the US whatsoever since I became a CDN citizen in the early 80’s (when I was a child).
I intend to go the ‘relinquish’ route but this 1997-issued passport is a bit of a pain in my Canadian butt.
Any thoughts, experiences?
@pacifica777, thanks for writing that 🙂
I’m waiting now for the invitation to the ceremony. Checked the post again today but nothing there but a promotional flyer….
A passport after having relinquished is problematic, but not necessarily fatal if it was obtained because the person was told they had they had to get one.
Here are some comments from people who were in a similar situation and now have CLNs based on their date of naturalisation.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/comment-page-32/#comment-118836
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/24/consulate-visit-report-directory/comment-page-28/#comment-116696
Also a recent comment from msd who just got his properly backdated CLN — he provides background regarding his passport matter further back on that thread, if you scroll back to early this year (Jan, I think).
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/did-you-relinquish-before-february-6-1995-then-you-did-not-have-to-inform-the-state-department/comment-page-8/#comment-409738
@David,
Is your wife already a citizen of another country? Might any of these apply to her? If so, and she did not act as a US citizen since that date, she would have already terminated her citizenship. She would still need to get a CLN to make it official. It would reflect the date she actually terminated her citizenship, there’s no $450 fee (that’s only for renunciation – 349(a)(5), and depending when the relinquishing act occurred, it may be prior to the current exit tax law.
Immigration and Nationalities Act, s. 349(a)(1)
A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality–
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
(4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required;
@SwissPinoy
“the social security number remains valid. No TIN is needed. That’s what the IRS told me.”
Thanks for this info. I read somewhere that the SS nr. is cancelled when one is no longer a USC. Therefore I wondered what nr. to use on the tax forms/fbars etc I have to file for the part of year 2013 before I renounce. Former USC/USPs do not have to file these forms, but for part of 2013 I am still a USC and I won’t be able to file the 2013 tax forms before 2014, when I will longer be a USC (and assumed the SS nr. was cancelled) I can see the confusion is because the forms have to be filed in 2014 but only are relevant up to the day I renounce in 2013. What to do about the personal deductions on form 1040 when only filing for part of the year? And how to figure the FEIE when only a USC for part of 2013? Does one just take a % of the total yearly amount – for example divide the FEIE in half if renouncing in June 2013? Thanks for any addiitonal info.
Can a dual citizen relinquish US citizenship by reaffirming their citizenship in a mass ceremony before a citizenship judge?
aaa123,
No, but it SHOULD be a means. In doing so, I knew absolutely more than I ever did when I re-affirmed my allegiance ONLY to Canada…
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/03/05/possible-canadian-tax-relief-for-us-persons-in-canada/comment-page-1/#comment-213475
@aaa123, depends on when and how you obtained your other citizenship. If it was many years ago you might be able to relinquish. If it’s fairly recent, say 15-20 years, then it’ll be a renouncement instead.
@aaa123
How did you get your dual-citizenship?
I’m a dual-citizen from birth in the US having been born to Canadian parents in the US. The family moved back to Canada in 1966 when I was 12. There is a chance that I can relinquish because the laws prior to Oct 1978 were different (and dual-citizenship didn’t technically exist as it does now).
If you have dual-citizenship from birth and are in or older than your late 50’s, have a look at the conversation in this thread over the last week or so between me and Benedict Arnold.
@medea and others
“laws prior to Oct 1978 were different ” If so, then how did I continue to have both a U.S. and an EF/EU country passport when I applied for the EU one well before 1978. I was naturalised at age 10 in the U.S. and applied for my birth country passport at age 18. No one mentioned that I was no longer a USC – I wish they had! Unfortunately I kept renewing the US passport which only very occassionally was used – exclusively for travel to/from the US
Allou,
The law that I am describing is for US citizens who left the US at an early age, and possibly only for those who had US citizenship from birth (not sure: can’t look that up just now). It’s as yet unproven that we’ll be successful with this argument for back-dated CLN. I think your situation is significantly different.
@allou, things were different back then. I was dual from birth and when my mother and I were going to go back to the States for a visit we enquired about getting a British passport for me because my mother hated the thought of me returning to the UK and having to go through the aliens gate at immigration. She knew that the US didn’t really recognise dual citizenship then (1976), but the British attitude was that if we didn’t tell them they’d never know. So I got a British passport to go with my American one.
Dual citizenship wasn’t really spoken about much simply because it was so rare in the first place. Remember people in those days wanted to keep their, usually hard-won, US citizenship so wouldn’t necessarily mention that their birth country still might consider them a national too. Or as in my case, my parents were British and even though they naturalised in the States, were still considered by the UK to be British and hence I was entitled to British citizenship too through them.
It really depends on what the laws/attitudes in both countries were at the time you got your US citizenship. And of course, no one ever foresaw the minefield we all find ourselves in now, so many years into the future.
As I understood it, one could be a citizenship of multiple nations until the age of 18, where one then had to choose which nation to be a citizen of when dual nationality was not allowed.
@Swisspinoy
“As I understood it, one could be a citizenship of multiple nations until the age of 18, where one then had to choose which nation to be a citizen of when dual nationality was not allowed.
That was exactly my argument to the consular rep…(Canadian mother/US Father) came to CANADA at age 5 1/2 in 1963 after her divorce. The fact that I had a Certificate of Canadian Citizenship issued to me in 1967 at age 10, a Canadian Passport issued in 1968 at age 10 and the fact that I never made any indication to suggest a US Citizenship after attaining age 18 , have always used a canadian passport, never issued a US Passport nor SSN..for all intents and purposes, other than my birth certificate, I don’t exist in the US records…I have other supporting arguments as well but will not cloud the picture
There was no process to realize the “choose your citizenship to be canadian” since I was already certified canadian …the requirement at the time was …you have the right to claim US Citizenship…
Failure to claim that right should be recognized by the preponderance of evidence as to what actions one took after attaining the age of majority (check = no attempt made)…I already had my citizenship, my canadian passport..and even voted at age 19 as well as other supporting facts…
The regulations didn’t have a procedure to clearly deal with this situation at the time…all rules now in place were introduced after the fact and were not common practice..
That is why I believe I am a TEST CASE…it will be interesting to see how they argue this one out…
Let me edit that to make it clear:
Failure to claim that right should be recognized by the preponderance of evidence as to what actions one took after attaining the age of majority (check = no attempt made) …I already had my Canadiancitizenship, my canadian passport..and even voted in Canada at age 19 as well as other supporting facts…
aaa123, I (and my husband) spent a substantial amount of time trying to get Citizenship and Immigration Canada to allow me to swear the oath. Born in US, to Canadian parents, dual at birth, in Canada since infancy. CIC said it wouldn’t work, couldn’t do it, already a citizen. I finally swore it before a Justice of the Peace.
Toronto consulate told me it was not a basis for relinquishing, as opposed to renouncing. They told me DC would not accept it. (The same consulate told me in ’92 that I was not American because I’d voted in Canada, lived in Canada, etc.). They said I could submit the form, but it would be denied. I renounced, because I couldn’t afford the airfare back to Toronto a second time, when it was refused.
Duals from birth, at this point, seemed trapped into renouncing.
@Benedict
Our cases are so similar, including that we moved back to Canada after my parents divorced. Two differences:both my parents are Canadian, and I have Certification of Citizen Born Abroad. So, for example, if I had to renounce I would not be a covered expat due to dual citizenship from birth. But of course, I don’t intend to renounce since I’m not a USC.
How on earth did you prove that you voted in 1968? (Ummm, you didn’t vote for Trudeau, did you!?!?! 😉
@The Mom,
I’m curious, if you lived near the consulate such that multiple visits were easy to do, do you think you could have convinced them to submit your relinquishment to DC to see if they might accept it?
Voted after turning 19…(I am in B.C.)
As for your reference to Covered Expat…I am not sure if I understand the rules..but again..if I do…they shouldn’t apply as follows…I defer to Calgary411 to clarify if I am misreading them…I made an email to remind myself to bring this up at some future date..but since you mentioned it…I will raise the question here..
(thank you Calgary411)
Before I forget, here is something else I found reading through a Calgary411 post from Dec 22, 2012 at 5:34pm in response to bubblebustin…As it relates to taxation and MINORS in particular in our similar situation…I Bolded the part that is significant to us…as I doubt any taxation is applicable..nor can I see any reason to file since we are talking LONG before 2004…Form 8854 is used by
individuals who have expatriated on or after June 4, 2004.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/14/pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/comment-page-37/#comments
Or not so hazy:
* http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
Exception for dual-citizens and certain minors. Dual-citizens and certain minors (defined next) will not be treated as covered expatriates (and therefore will not be subject to the expatriation tax) solely because one or both of the statements in paragraph (1) or (2) above (under Who Must File) applies. However, these individuals will still be treated as covered expatriates unless they file Form 8854 and certify that they have complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of expatriation as required in paragraph (3) above (under Who Must File).
Certain dual-citizens.
You may qualify for the exception described above if you meet both of the following requirements.You became at birth a U.S. citizen and a citizen of another country and you continue to be a citizen of, and are taxed as a resident of, that other country.You were a resident of the United States for not more than 10 years during the 15-tax-year period ending with the tax year during which the expatriation occurred. For the purpose of determining U.S. residency, use the substantial presence test described in chapter 1 of Pub. 519.Certain minors. You may qualify for the exception described above if you meet both of the following requirements.You expatriated before you were18-1/2. You were a resident of the United States for not more than 10 tax years before the expatriation occurs. For the purpose of determining U.S. residency, use the substantial presence test described in chapter 1 of Pub. 519.
I trust Calgary411 has a better grasp on this than I do…
@WhatAmI
Being a dual from birth gets you out of the net worth test if renouncing. However, you still need to be tax compliant for the 5 preceding tax years in order to not be a covered expat.
@The Mom
You could have relinquished before 2009 when Canada made changes to the Citizenship Act that allowed both you and me to become Canadians at birth (regardless of the fact that I naturalized as a Canadian in 1996). On the bright side, we are no longer subjected to the exit tax upon renunciation, should we meet the threshold. Considering all of the goalpost moving the the US is doing, I’d take that any day over relinquishment!