Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
[quote]@JapanT
In my last post I wrote that the issue of possibly violating Japanese law was not the only issue with FBARs. The security issue of giving all such info to a gov. incapable of safeguarding all the data they had on the greater part of all its federal employees, including spies, should not be taken lightly.[/quote]
If you read the F(u)BAR privacy statement, you will see that the IRS/finCEN will share that information with no regard whatsoever to your privacy rights. It matters not if the information can be hacked as the IRS makes it very freely available to far too many people and offices.
@ehfreeman
Yes, of course. My route to learn of all this this were statements on my passport renewal application that basically said that all my information would be shared with everyone, including my name, address, SSN and email address.
My point is that if they can not be bothered to secure sensitive information of government employees they surely aren’t going to care a wit about the safety and security of the ordinary citizen living overseas.
@iota
I didn’t mean it should not be tried, just that one should not pin all their hopes upon a FOIA request. One hopes that those in gov. who so flagrantly flaught the law will one day be held accountable, and not complying toma FOIA request does have legal penalties.
It might, might be helpful in a lawsuit or criminal trial. Especially if a jury is in anyway involved. I would hope (hope is fading, admittedly) that it would seem odd that an individual must retain such a huge amount of records and provide them on the spot at request under pain of huge fines when the very same body making these demands can not or will not comply with the legal responsibilities of the FOIA.
I have a friend who is thinking she would really like a legit CLN (as opposed to dealing with ‘Blackie’). My friend has no SSN. Her earned income is under the filing threshold for each of the past five years but that could change soon so she is thinking now might be a good time to make the divorce official. She really does NOT want one of those Official tax slave numbers. Could she simply renounce then send a letter to the IRS stating her income was under the filing threshold, fill out the exit form 8854 and be done with it all! No US tax slave number is required if no 1040’s required right?
Also curious, does anyone know how long the wait for renunciation appointments in Ottawa is currently?
Sounds like a plan. 8854 asks for an identifying ( normally SS) Number . The instructions say that if she was never issued a number, she should attach a statement saying why. I bet she never hears a word.
@DukeOfDevon,
in your opinion regarding my friend who has 5 years of earnings below threshold for reporting, should she even bother with a letter explaining this, or just file the 8854 and be done with it. IRS can read between the lines what no 1040’s means?
@Blackkat – I filed no 1040s and didn’t send a letter and just assumed they could see from the numbers on my 8854 that I was below the threshold for filing. I had a SSN tho, so I didn’t have that issue. But I wouldn’t think they’d chase a person with so little income. Not cost effective.
@BlackKat
You said your friend’s “earned income is under the filing threshold”. FWIW, it’s gross income that needs to be below the threshold – so unearned/passive income counts as well.
She is supposed to send a letter as to why she has no identifying number. Might as well add a line stating she was below the earnings threshold for the 5 years. No harm in doing so.
@Tdott. Right.
@Duke. That could work. Thanks for your thoughts.
just got my appointment in TO… for end of January. Took them about 5 months to write back to me for the appointment!
@ Dave,
Disgusting they take 5 months to reply to your appt request (and then another 5 months to have the appointment). At least now, after the complete silence, you’re getting some light at the end of the tunnel, so it’s good to hear that the end is in sight. Wish it were (a lot) sooner. Thanks for sharing the info.
Hello,
I find this a very informative and helpful sight! I was wondering if anyone knows how long the whole process takes to apply for a CLN, visit a Consulate office, and then finally receive one’s CLN? Is it more than a year? Less than a year?
As a Canadian I was also wondering if you have to temporarily lose your Canadian passport between renouncing your citizenship and receiving your CLN.
Thanks so much for the help and support! It’s really sad that things have devolved to this point.
Hi Valentina,
The total time varies from consulate to consulate. From the reports on this site, it seems that the waiting period for an appointment in Canada is quite long. I renounced in Sydney (Australia). It took about a month to get an appointment. I’m still waiting for the CLN about 8 weeks after the appointment with the consulate.
You’ll need to take your Canadian passport with you to your renunciation appointment, but they won’t keep it. You’ll also need to take your US passport (if you have one), that one they will keep and return (cancelled) with the CLN.
@Valentina, welcome. As Karen says it varies from place to place, but most if not all the Canadian options seem to be booked some months ahead. Have a look here
http://catseyesap.com/crd/Consulate%20Report%20Directory%202016.06.d.pdf
to see if there are any recent reports for Canada and compare the times. This may give you some idea of how long it takes, but waiting times for the CLN to arrive vary wildly so you just have to be patient. As you can see from Dave’s post a litte higher up it took the consulate he contacted 5 months to respond to his request and he’s having to wait 5 more months for the appointment.
A copy of your Canadian passport will be taken, but it will be returned to you straight after; it’s just a copy for their records.
The main thing to remember for a renunciation is that it doesn’t matter how long the CLN takes to arrive, once you’ve stood in front of the Consul and sworn the Oath of Renunciation then you’re no longer an American citizenship from that moment. However long the CLN takes to reach you it’s activation date will be THAT date. Your renunciation cannot be denied unless the embassy/consulate/State Dept have a very good reason to believe you’re either mentally unable to make such a decision or that you’re being coerced in some way.
I don’t think that you can be denied renouncing simply because you do not have a 2nd nationality? You’re allowed to become stateless, if that’s what you want, right? I mean, fellow Brocker AD203 was stateless because he couldn’t apply for his German citizenship until he was free of his US one.
@Karen & re: the ridiculous “wait time” in AU– I think it’s just a sham. I’d been to the Perth embassy, many times, for things related to my kids & such…the place is a ghost-town all of the time. The day I finally (three visits!) handed over my passport, there was literally no one there, at all, the entire time I was in that embassy. They had at least eight people working & no customers.
I think it’s all a big head trip, personally (exception of Canada due to the sheer numbers of border-babies, etc).
@Jane
Actually, the wait time for an appointment in Sydney wasn’t bad at all. The wait for the CLN, however, continues. They said 6-8 weeks and it has been over 8 weeks now.
@Karen
As we all know now– there’s no rhyme or reason to it.
(Mine took 10 months, fyi)
@Jane I’m hoping mine shows up quicker than that. I promised my mother a visit at the end of this year.
Well, it’s been a full 11 months since my appointment at the Calgary consulate and I still haven’t received my CLN. The consul that I met with did not see that there should be any problems with my renunciation. I emailed to the address that I used to make the appointment, but of course have not received any response. They told me to expect my CLN within 5 – 8 months. I’m trying not to get stressed about it. Has anyone else had such a long wait??
@SEE
krackerjack reported a particularly long wait here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-50/#comment-7612555
He ended up contacting the state department directly.
We renounced in Sydney two months ago. We were told it would take 6-8 weeks, but we haven’t heard anything yet. If we don’t hear by the end of the month, I’m going to start sending emails.
Another huge hrdle for those seeking citizenship in countries with a time limit on renouncing.
@ SEE,
You might want to follow up with DoS/ACS in Washington. Some Brockers have phoned their ACS Division Chief and got fast action — as long as the CLN was taking a long time [by DoS’ standards, which are pretty slow to begin with]. 11 months is quite long and well over the timeframe you were given. It seems that sometimes a file gets lost in the cracks and lurks there until someone brings it to their attention.
The Division Chief for Western Hemisphere is Christine Fagan, 202-485-6289. Unfortunately, we don’t have e-mail addresses. The link to the DoS Telephone Directory (which also gives snail-mail addresses) is at http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/112065.pdf The ACS division office chiefs are on page OD-17 of the current directory.
This telephone directory can also be accessed on the State Dept Forms, Procedure Manuals and Contact Info page, which is accessible under “Important Info” on the sidebar.”
@Karen, If necessary you can ask the embassy/consulate to give you back your US passport for US travel purposes if your CLN hasn’t arrived. You simply return it back to them when you get back from your trip.