Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Is a person born abroad to US parents automatically a citizen from the time of birth?
One factor to consider here is: Even if the answer is to this is “no not until the person er registered as a US citizen” there is the requirement for the U.S. citizen parent to file yearly tax forms. In order to claim the U.S. tax deduction for a dependent, the child would have to be registered and have a social security number. This has probably resulted in a number of children born abroad of a U.S. parent having no choice in the matter. Ideally the children should have been informed of the possibility to renounce for themselves, but probably were not. I know I never was aware of this as a young adult. I myself was naturalized U.S. as a child, and at 18 I applied for and received a passport from my birth nation, but was never told I could renounce the the U.S. citizenship, just that I was a dual.
None of us, whatever our description of US Persons Abroad, had good information, including you, allou.
For me, coming to Canada decades ago and becoming a Canadian citizen in 1975 and at the time being “warned” (very punitively) that I would be relinquishing my US citizenship, I never gave it a thought and never filed a US tax return until recent times (much to my dismay). Thus, I never claimed any US tax deduction for my children — as far as I was concerned, they were Canadian. End of story. Of course, I now know how stupid I was, lulled into complacency. No child born to US citizen parent(s) had any choice in where they were born or to what kind of citizen they were born to — it was all accidental. That they are now penalized for what their parent(s) did not know is absurd and so wrong. Really! Choice of claiming a US citizenship is one thing — a gift of US citizenship is quite entirely another. Nice gift!
@Calgary411
I’m glad your mayor is taking great leadership. Perhaps when the time is right he should be digging into why community groups in flood prone areas in Calgary were allowed to dissuade the City of Calgary from focussing on a flood management plan because doing so would have effected their property values.
@SwissPinoy,,, an update for you on your flowchart. If you obtained a US passport under duress from US Customs as a requirement to enter the US, you can still relinquish.
bubblebustin, I’m sure Mayor Nenshi will be continuing leadership into the post-flood and any future flood management plans. I’ve just been looking at maps http://environment.alberta.ca/01662.html. I now know that our home is neither in the Floodway or Flood Fringe areas of Calgary, although in one of the evacuation zones for four days (but NOTHING adverse to our property). All of the Calgary flooding looks to be in the areas of the city built in the early 1900’s — our home 1912, which we’ve been in since 1991. We all will be re-assessing where we live and learning of insurance coverage, etc. after all of this. (After the 2005 flood: http://www.thebowriver.com/development_flood_plans.htm)
I’ve likely been as complacent about the flood danger to our home as I’ve been about US taxes.
@calgary411
A failure to plan is a plan to fail, but by the same token, we’d drive ourselves nuts if we always planned for the worse case scenario, wouldn’t we?
Best wishes to Calgary for a speedy recovery, a great Canadian city on Canada’s birthday.
…and a great Canada Day to all Canadians, especially those with those US indicia who hopefully realize how lucky we are to be part of this society!
Updated the flowchart. Removed the passport check, developmentally disabled cannot renounce/relinquish, non-US birth,renounced before 1995.
http://sharepoint.glasscoin.ch/renounce/usa/SiteAssets/Guide/Homepage/Renunciation%20Guide.png
Gosh…. this is getting complicated, like everything else with Form-Filing-Nation. Maybe when we are done with this, IBS can license it to banks for $10000 per copy, per year!
@SwissPinoy – what a good flow chart. I found myself via the lines – a naturlized U.S. citizen as a child and never made a reaffirmation oath! Too bad I was told I had dual nationality and thus I continued to renew the U.S. passport even though I had moved to another country 🙁 now I will have to renounce….keep up the good work!
This is INDEED a valuable document you have produced, SwissPinoy.
I’d like to throw in one other scenario: my husband (born in Canada) became a US citizen in 2000 (a musician who was thinking of plying his trade in the US as long as he could in lieu of retirement savings in Canada). His dad was born in North Dakota (and died in Canada without ever realizing that he was a US citizen). He had moved to the province of Saskatchewan with his parents as a child. I don’t know if my husband got his US passport through his grandparents who came to the US from Finland or from his dad. My husband did not carry out his plan (but now had a US passport) and, coincidentally married me, a US Person in Canada, in 2005. And, of course, we have both now renounced, as has my daughter. My son (your developmentally disadvantaged scenario) remains in limbo.
Wow, Calgary411, your circumstances are remarkably similar to mine! I helped my first son attain his US passport, but my second wants nothing to do with US citizenship. I wouldn’t say he or your son are in limbo though, because how can you get rid of something you never had in the first place? However like you, I do see the merit in having it in writing that the US can’t impose citizenship on our children. As for my husband, it’s ridiculous to hear this nonsense from the likes of Schumer and Reed that his success is due to what the US has given to him when he’s never lived or worked there (unless of course they believe that American genes are responsible for it. How much of a jump would you think it would be to go from master nation to master race for those who believe that rape babies will abort themselves?).
@WhatAmI
As I await my resolution, I keep digging into any rules and regulations that were created after the fact which support my position that there existed a policy recognizing an AUTOMATIC LOSS of US Citizenship in the 1970’s … (was it 18 or 21 ?)
If you read the way they deal with children in http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120538.pdf
you will notice a LETTER being drafted that actually references 6 months after turning 18…
Section 351(b) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S. Code 1483) allows you to reclaim your U.S. citizenship within 6 months after your 18th birthday. You are advised to make a note of the deadline to reclaim automatically your U.S. citizenship: the deadline is [insert date six months from 18th birthday.] You may do so by going to any U.S. embassy or consulate or passport acceptance facility, execute a passport application and take an oath of allegiance to the United States. Under this law, if you make such a claim, you will be considered as never having renounced your U.S. citizenship.
I have always wondered how the US handles Adulthood…is it 18 or 21?
I know in casinos in the US it is 21…but for voting? drinking?
In BC it is 19, in Alberta I believe it is 18 ..legal age for drinking voting gambling..etc..
I think it varies from state to state which is why it’s difficult to pin down. Certainly back in the late 60s/early 70s it would have been 21 at least iirc in Oklahoma and maybe even 25 if you wanted to go into a bar and drink. You could get a full driver’s licence at 16, but I can’t remember what the voting age was back then.
@ SwissPinoy
If you flowcharted my scenario It would be a very squiggly line ending in limbo. I am a Canadian with a long expired US green card stuck to my identity — permanently it seems. I was told over 15 years ago that because I did nothing to keep my green card active it was null and void and assumed thereafter that I was a Canadian and nothing more. I do not possess the green card now but USCIS will not confirm that they have it so in IRS stupidthink I guess I am still a “US person for tax purposes”.
I’d love to move back in time to my exit date from the USA (over 15 years ago) and do the exit procedure according to the rules that I knew nothing about then … but I can’t. I can’t move forward either because I do not have an officially stamped I-407 (the green carder’s CLN). My no doubt stupid decision is to continue on as the “non-resident alien” we noted me to be on the joint 1040s my husband filed after our exit/escape from the USA. Now he files separately and I do not file at all. We informed the IRS of this change — no response so far. I can’t straighten out all the wrong turns I made along the way so I have decided to continue on the best I can and never cross the border into Mordor again.
I believe the proper procedure for a green carded person to exit the US tax system when he or she exits the USA would be to send an I-407 application to the USCIS (probably best to do this at a consulate), obtain an approved I-407, file final US taxes with an 8854, file a final FBAR (make sure all deadlines are met) … and then hope they don’t change the rules at a later date.
@Benedict Arnold
Another good find. The document seems to indicate that for a minor under 18 who relinquished their USC (likely under the influence of a parent), they have a 6-month window after reaching 18 to reclaim their USC. At 18, they are considered old enough and competent to make the (overriding) decision for themselves if they should so choose.
I too was wondering if the age for renunciation etc was 18 or 21. This document seems to confirm that it is 18.
Here are two interesting posts:
http://www.accidentaluscitizen.com/better-department-of-state-guidance-needed-for-contested-certificate-of-loss-of-nationality-applications/
http://www.accidentaluscitizen.com/state-department-forms-need-to-distinguish-between-relinquishment-and-renunciation/
@calgary411
As I understand it, your husband became a US citizen after the birth of your children and thus his former US citizenship has no impact on their status. Hmm…. I suppose that I could chart this too, maybe. I kind of have to limit the possibilities, text and lines, though, since otherwise it would become impossible to understand.
@bubblebustin,
As I understand it now, calgary411’s son is not a US citizen but might be defined by banks as being US indica and could thus be automatically labelled as being a “tax cheat” if no W-9 is submitted on his behalf to the bank.
@Em, thanks. That helps me to understand the greencard situation a bit better. Up to this point, I didn’t know where to begin drawing the lines. I shoud be able to chart this later today.
@SwissPinoy.
My present husband is my second. My first husband, my children’s father, and I came to Canada in 1969; we divorced in 1984; he is now deceased. I remarried in 2005 — coincidentally to another US citizen from year 2000, but born in Canada. That leaves my son who is entrapped into US citizenship — or not. At any rate, I am not registering him for him to be able to renounce, which he cannot do and I (or any other Parent, Guardian and Trustee for their developmentally delayed child) am told by US Consulate / DOS that I do not have that right, even with a court order.
Another fact regarding my son is that my FBAR’s identify the Registered Disability Savings Plan (RDSP) that I hold for him (as I am trustee for his financial transactions). The RDSP is in my name; my son will be the beneficiary when he starts drawing from this registered Canadian savings plan. That information is there for the US to link to, all of the account details that I’ve had to give the US.
As Shadow Raider points out,
The sane, easy to implement solution, seems to me is out with Citizenship-Based Taxation and change to Resident-Based Taxation as the rest of the more sane countries of the world.
@Swisspinoy
Guilty by association and until proven innocent- brought to us from the champions of freedom.
I thought I would share this memo sent to me from my daughter living in the UK upon her hearing of my so called US Citizenship boondoggle…
I hope this injects a bit of light-heartedness into this Canada Day Weekend…
A MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN
To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II
In light of your failure in recent years to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. (You should look up
‘revocation’ in the Oxford English Dictionary.)
Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except North Dakota, which she does not fancy).
Your new Prime Minister, David Cameron, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.
Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed.
To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
1. The letter ‘U’ will be reinstated in words such as ‘colour,’ ‘favour,’ ‘labour’ and ‘neighbour.’ Likewise, you will learn to spell ‘doughnut’ without skipping half the letters, and the suffix ‘-ize’ will be replaced by the suffix ‘-ise.’ Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up ‘vocabulary’).
2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ”like’ and ‘you know’ is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter ‘u” and the elimination of ‘-ize.’
3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.
4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you’re not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can’t sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you’re not ready to shoot grouse.
5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.
6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.
7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.
8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.
9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. South African beer is also acceptable, as they are pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of the British Commonwealth – see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat’s Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.
10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Andie Macdowell attempt English dialect in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one’s ears removed with a cheese grater.
11. You will cease playing American football. There is only one kind of proper football; you call it soccer. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).
12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the South Africans first to take the sting out of their deliveries.
13.. You must tell us who killed JFK. It’s been driving us mad.
14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty’s Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).
15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season.
God Save the Queen!
PS: Only share this with friends who have a good sense of humour (NOT humor)!
@Benedict,
Thanks for sharing. Your daughter’s memo has given me my chuckle for the day. When I think of the hassle I received from the Vancouver consulate last fall when they would not accept my birth certificate, nor marriage certificate – I should have just told the vice consul that for 41 years I have always used the u in colour,neighbour, etc, always written cheques to pay for items not checks, and pronounced the letter Z as zed not zee. That should have been the proof I needed to show I am Canadian and Canadian only
Benedict — Thanks for the Happy Canada Day wishes and for your daughter passing this on to you. I chuckled too, tiger.
Could the US homelanders relate to Her Majesty’s Government collecting from them all back taxes from 1776? Would they get why this was happening until monies were actually being drained out of their no-longer private banking and investment accounts — and their retirement savings, the UK re-claiming their chattel that got away? Would they think nothing is sacred as they are being punished for their renouncing that homeland for tax reasons?
@Benedict. Love it!!! I especially enjoyed the paragraph about US “beer.” And the comment about learning to resolve personal differences without resort to firearms, therapists or lawyers.
@Benedict Arnold be me, I like several of the points, for real, like switching to metric, using more roundabouts, higher cost of gas, etc. Implement!