Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
SwissPinoy posted this on EF in reply:
“That quote comes from here and was made before the fees were hiked:
http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2015/02/18/when-american-expats-dont-want-their-kids-to-have-u-s-citizenship/
The US embassy in Switzerland has since stated that the $2350 renunciation/relinquishment fee applies to any kid and that kids are first allowed to renounce when they reach the age of 16.”
Too bad USC when born abroad wasn’t (especially as we see the adverse consequences only starting with escalating $US fees for the *right* to expatriate, now at US$2,350) only a choice for the child/person to make when of adult age and with requisite mental capacity to understand any benefits as well as all consequences of a fully-educated choice. The right to claim such a citizenship / any citizenship if birth facts qualify them, would not go away — that right would their (and only their) choice, not a choice made by someone else or acquisition of the person by the country itself. In my mind, it should be a choice for any individual, an OPT-IN, never an OPT-OUT. Do we not want to ALL make our own choices in our lives?
@calgary411 I was born in the US… Yet, there was never any “consent” from me about about whether I accepted that “taint”. I’d say “how dare” the US gov’t “lay claim” to me as if I’m an indentured slave. It should only ever be “opt-in”– whether born in or out of the USA, for everyone.
THAT is the end result of CBT– complete & utter lunacy that we even have to discuss such things.
Carol iron sharpens iron. Your argument this morning is iron.
Anything other than opting in is a violation of fundamental human rights
Jane you are correct. Calgary simply provides the purest example of the human rights violation that would be well positioned in let’s say a court in Dublin Ireland
Yes, Jane and George, absurd that any *Accidental American* should have to now pay (as only a start of their expense) US$2,350 for their emancipation. Some, those without *requisite mental capacity*, are entrapped beyond that as a parent, a guardian or a trustee cannot act on their behalf nor may they influence their decision to renounce in any way. A decision to rid oneself of a non-meaningful, without consent USC must be understood and applied for only by the person. Something is VERY wrong with that.
Anyone of “diminished mental capacity” ought to have the right to a trustee or responsible relative to act on their behalf– for the US gov’t to hold “forced citizenship” over that person is outrageous!
I guess the US thinks that all of truly diminished mental faculties will end up in Congress…
Calgary would Canada allow you to renounce for your son as in renouncing Canadian citizenship
@George
Great question, but no can do in Canada either:
Who can apply for renunciation under subsection 9(1)?
Under the provisions of subsection 9(1) of the Citizenship Act, a Canadian citizen may renounce citizenship if they
are a citizen of a country other than Canada, or, if their application is accepted, will become a citizen of a country other than Canada;
are not the subject of a declaration by the Governor in Council under section 20;
are not a minor;
are not prevented from understanding the significance of renouncing citizenship by reason of having a mental disability; and
do not reside in Canada.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/cit/acquisition/renunciation.asp
However,
Minister’s discretion to waive some of the renunciation requirements of subsection 9(1)
Subsection 9(2) of the Citizenship Act gives the Minister the discretion to waive on compassionate grounds the requirements of paragraphs 9(1)(d) and (e):
the applicant is not prevented from understanding the significance of renouncing citizenship by reason of the person having a mental disability [A9(1)(d)]; and
the applicant does not reside in Canada [A9(1)(e)].
The consequences of retaining Canadian or that of most any other countries’ citizenship are different, mostly nil, in a residence-based taxation country than the country of US CBT. Comparing apples to coconuts rather than even apples to oranges.
…with the consequences of US CBT, but the US / Washington, DC immigration / nationality lawyer I hired relayed to me …
A safeguard not well thought-out in US legislation, onerous and doesn’t make good sense with CBT — the reason I say that with CBT, it should only ever be an OPT-IN, never an OPT-OUT if it has the capacity to entrap anyone into the CBT consequences. For no amount of $$$ paid to any US tax lawyer or US tax accountant or US immigration/nationality lawyer could such a person(without FULL understanding) expatriate that *acquired* US-deemed, non-meaningful, without consent US citizenship. A sub-group of all the other absurdity for *Accidental Americans*. Affected *US persons without capacity* will be many more than just those with a developmental disability and many more families than mine who may have to deal with these poor US CBT consequences.
(The best I can say is that birth abroad to US parent(s) with only an other-country passport is not so identifiable. My son and his accounts that I hold on his behalf are identified through the FBARs I filed in conjunction with my own renunciation in 2012. Even if not so identifiable, no one should have to depend on *luck to not be caught*. Absurd that any of us should be criminalized and have to consider looking over our shoulder as part of our necessary life-style (paranoid? that someone could turn us in to the US IRS or even the CRA or a local Canadian *foreign financial institution*).
I renounced yesterday. It was like going to the bank. No questions asked, no interview. Just the consul(?) behind a glass window reading the implications of the act and me reading the oath. A couple of signatures and a written statement. And of course the handing over of my passport, through the window. She asked me if I wanted it sent back to me later as a souvenir. It felt strange to have the consul behind a security window. The embassy staff was kind and polite.
When I read the oath I was struck by a sudden bang of emotion. I didn’t expect that to happen.
@Joe, congratulations.
It can feel strange I guess, probably because of the American thing of swearing oaths a lot of the time. Daily pledge of alligence to the flag at school drums it into us early and we probably never completely lose it.
Interesting about the passport. Usually they have to send it back to you cancelled and with a couple of holes put through it for good measure.
According to the IRS…
Effect of foreign jurisdiction laws.
The fact that a foreign jurisdiction would impose a civil or criminal penalty on you if you disclose the required information is not reasonable cause.
Well, how’dja like that? Well…it’s reasonable cause enough for me. F the USA.
Ha, don’t you just LOVE US law/regs when applied outside the US. Never mind the fact you could be thrown in jail – file your damn US return dude!
NO… 😛 I’m not going to file. They can kiss my rather expansive heiny. 😀
@TheAnimal. What they call the foreign law is my local law. US law is what’s foreign– the American invaders need to be repelled. Sir Isaac, we need you– Canada has been invaded again!
@Joe
Congratulations on your renunciation. I recall not feeling much of anything when I read the renunciation oath. A few days later a great wave of relief hit me in realizing I was no longer a US person.
@BC Doc
” US law is what’s foreign– the American invaders need to be repelled. Sir Isaac, we need you– Canada has been invaded again!” This is the reason many of us expats who have renounced, myself included, are still in the fight.
Maybe it was all the stress and tension that had built up inside the months prior to the renunciation that was released. Maybe a combination of release and loss. I think I identified myself more as American as a child. My connection to America was stronger then. I used to go there once a year. As an adult my tie had weakened considerably. But when I read the oath I was hit with flashback memories from my American side. It was quite intense and it was difficult to focus on the words of the oath. It took me by surprise although I had read about people who had had similar experiences. Afterwards when I left the seventies murky embassy and came out in the sun I felt a strong sense of relief though.
Congrats Joe. What’s the next step?
Then there’s some of us…who haven’t been able to renounce… That pesky little thing called $$$ and work y’know. And the fact that we don’t eat, we don’t survive to make more money…that the damned IRS can try to steal from us.
Hi,
I’m new to Isaac Brock. I was born in the US, immigrated to Canada in 1973, became a Canadian citizen in 1981, lived a pure Canadian life since then – no US work or property or anything except many visits. There was one event, however, crossing the US border in approximately 2002 in which a long-expired US passport popped out, leading to a missed flight, an endlessly frustrating delay until some paperwork appeared that I vaguely remember might have included me claiming to still be a US citizen. Could this have an impact on my claim to have voluntarily relinquished my US citizenship, making a CLN less certain?
Thanks,
SGS
@SGS
Welcome to Brock. I don’t know much about your particular situation. Perhaps someone else on this site can help you. I can say that I tried to relinquish and was refused because I had used a US passport after becoming a Canadian citizen. However, I didn’t hesitate to renounce subsequently and never regretted that decision. The fee for relinquishment and renunciation are now the same outrageous price. Best wishes with your moving ahead on this whatever you should decide to do.
SGS. Hard to say. Since the passport that popped out was expired, you couldn’t have used it. I assume you didn’t get another one.
On the form that you will be asked to fill in you can honestly say you haven’t traveled on a US passport.
If it was your intent to relinquish then you did relinquish. Intent is supposed to be demonstrated by the facts and the preponderance of evidence. IE no US passport, no US ties, no employment and so on.
Whether or not the long lost paperwork reappears is a guess.