Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I said: “… sent them my 8854. Which is now on a tour of PA, courtesy of the USPS. Landed in Philadelphia, so I thought, Great, nearly there. The next day it visited Mechanicsburg and stayed a couple of days, then took off for Harrisburg, where it’s still languishing.”
Back in Philadelphia, in the exact same “USPS Facility” it was in 5 days ago. Is this normal for USPS deliveries?
Maybe it’s been there all along and random staff members have been idly scanning it to different destinations to hit some kind of scan points target?
@ Rwk,
No, voting isn’t.
But naturalising in a foreign country is, in itself, a relinquishing act if done with the intention of simultaneously terminating your US citizenship (illustrated by the fact you haven’t acted as a US citizen after that date (no US voting, working in the US as a US citizen, using US passport (rarely they’ve made exceptions for this one, it’s very dicey), etc).
The list of relinquishing acts is in the Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(1)(a). Note – (a)(2) taking an oath doesn’t count if you’re already a citizen of that country when you take an oath.
@Rwk, voting is one of the indicators used to show that you intend to lose your citizenship. It no longer counts in its own right. However, your gaining a second citizenship two years ago does if you did so with the intention of losing your US one. This is called a relinqishment (as opposed to a renunciation) and you can make an appointment at the nearest US embassy/consulate to you to relinquish based on your 2nd citizenship.
You’ll be asked to fill in this form:
https://eforms.state.gov/editdocument.aspx?documentid=240
which has a lot of questions to help staff decide how close your ties to the US are. The more you can say no to the better.
When you go to the embassy/consulate they’ll check over all the paperwork with you to make sure it’s correct and I think you’ll also have an interview to make sure you really want to relinquish. Then you’ll see the consul/vice-consul and swear/affirm the following documents:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
https://eforms.state.gov/editdocument.aspx?documentid=55
You’ll also have to pay a fee of $2,350 so make sure you have the cash/debit/credit card to be able to pay it.
If all goes well, the application will be forwarded to the State Department in Washington and eventually you’ll get a CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) which you can then use for any queries from your bank/s to show you are no longer a US citizen.
You may still have US tax filing obligations if you are not already up-to-date with these and in any case you’ll need to file an 8854 form to wrap up your US tax status.
I said:
So I have just checked tracking on the Royal Mail site, not expecting to learn anything since the envelope left the UK nearly a week ago. But apparently it’s all over:
@ iota
I know it’s a serious matter, getting that 8854 to where it’s supposed to go, but I just can’t help laughing about yours which seems to have a serious case of “going walkabout”. Let’s hope the tour has finally ended.
BTW my I-407 was tracked to exactly where it was supposed to go but there it encountered a black hole and disappeared. Not to worry though, I consulted the black hole forecast for PA and none are predicted for that region.
@Embee – Yes, I was finding it quite amusing until I saw the message on the Royal Mail site. I guess they tried to deliver it and the IRS refused to sign for it. So presumably it will be returned to the UK.
I’m thinking I’ll do up another original and send it to my sister in the US and ask her to post it to Philadelphia.
I do find it shocking that the IRS behaves in such a totally unreasonable way. So glad I left, all those years ago!
@ iota
Sorry, I was writing my comment while you were posting. Maybe the addressee will pick it up and it won’t get returned. Hope so. That’s the trouble with P.O. Box addresses. There’s nobody in the box to sign for registered mail. Wait to see if your mail tracker is tracking a return before you try a different route. Damn it shouldn’t be this hard. 🙁
Thanks Embee. You’re right, I’ll wait and see what happens. Plenty of time before the filing deadline.
Someone should really write a TV comedy about this stuff. Monty Python and the IRS…. 🙂
MB and iota. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mkAfl2RmAZc
@iota, have you sent it to the right place? The 8854 goes to this address:
Department of the Treasury, Internal Revenue Service, Philadelphia, PA 19255-0049
and there should be no problem in them signing for it. They must get hundreds of letters/packages a day that need to be signed for. I sent mine off recorded delivery and had no problem with it being signed for when it was delivered.
Using your tracking number I see from the full tracking info that it says it was “UNDELIVERED ITEM WRONGLY DIRECTED” whatever that means.
@Medeafleecestealer – Yes, it does say that now. Yes, it was addressed correctly. My guess is that that’s just the option they choose to tick rather than saying it was refused. But that’s just my guess.
I was aware that the 8854 destination is not one which accepts FedEx or UPS deliveries.
http://hodgen.com/you-cant-file-form-8854-via-fedex-or-ups/
(Perhaps you sent yours, and got it signed for, before this policy was initiated?)
I thought it would be ok if delivered by USPS, but apparently what they mean is that they won’t sign for any delivery, even from USPS. I probably should have realized that. It’s the signing they object to. No doubt they receive many forms, not just 8854s, so it’s probably not specifically aimed at would-be expatriates.
Never mind, I’ll send it off by plain mail, once it returns, and then I’ll forget about it.
I probably should have X’ed out that tracking number before I posted the report, this being the Internet. Is there a Moderator, I wonder, who might kindly do that for me?
Duke of Devon said:
“MB and iota. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mkAfl2RmAZc“
Ha ha, yes, exactly! 🙂
@iota, I posted mine via Swiss Post/USPS back in June 2014 and it was signed for then.
Still, reading Hodgen’s reply it seems you can still say it was delivered.
“Because delivery by Postal Service is less reliable than other methods Congress added a second rule, saying USPS = IRS. If you can prove you gave a piece of paper to the Postal Service on a specific date, that is treated as being the same as physical delivery of the piece of paper to the IRS.”
To reach anywhere in America by regular postal service an item HAS to go through USPS. I’d print off the detailed info from your tracking number and keep it as proof it was delivered. That’s what I did with mine when I sent it – printed off both the Swiss Post AND the USPS detailed info, even though they were exactly the same. Two different sources of confirmation was my thinking. So check it via the USPS website too.
@Jane
If you’re self-employed and are not paying into your country’s retirement plan, you are also liable to pay into U.S. Social Security and Medicare (as per form 1040 SE-Tax). The IRS also requires quarterly advance estimated payments on your income. It’s pure hell.
@Medea – yes, I do intend to keep the tracking and the no-doubt-battered envelope. It wouldn’t cut any ice with the IRS I’m quite sure, but I actually don’t expect ever to hear from them. I’ll send the form off again, and get proof of posting, and more than likely it will get there.
They really do take the biscuit though. The American people deserve better public servants. And better politicians.
@notamused
Well, we’ll see what the accountant says. I can’t worry about this any more or I’ll jump off a tall building. It shouldn’t be like this when you have earned all of $9,000USD… 🙁
@Chris,
Somewhat late here, but… if you read the conflicting 8854 instructions carefully you’ll see that they apply to renunciation in different years. Between 2004 and 2008 you had to file an initial one as soon as expatriating and then potentially one each year for the following ten years. After 2008 you only file one when your final 1040 is (or would be) due. If you file a 1040 remember to also send an 8854 copy to Philadelphia. The IRS is so poor at internal communication that you have to do it for them.
@iota
I have seen similar results to you with ‘international tracked and signed’ mail from the UK to the IRS. In every case where I got ‘not delivered’ or similar from tracking, the package was in fact delivered — I know this because either they cashed the cheque or I got the refund as expected — so maybe don’t yet assume it really isn’t delivered. The bonus in this case is that you can usually then go back to the post office and get a refund on your postage costs because they did not provide proof of delivery. 🙂
Up until this year it was possible to route mail to the IRS through the London UK consulate, much less pricey and good delivery confirmations. Unfortunately not longer an option now that the IRS has scrapped overseas offices (“IRS: your inconvenience is our number one concern”).
@Watcher – that’s very interesting. It did seem from the tracking reports to be retracing its journey, but maybe not. I will keep an eye out.
“IRS: your inconvenience is our number one concern”
Totally.
Update: I rang the Royal Mail to see what they could tell me. Seems to be in line with your experience, Watcher – the tracking reports are inaccurate, the envelope is still enmeshed in the USPS delivery system, and I’m told it should be delivered eventually.
We’ll see!
@iota:
If you check the USPS website with that tracking number, you will see that your “love letter” to the IRS arrived at the USPS facility in Philadelphia yesterday, February 10, 2015 at 2:28 pm (local time).
Sorry, I was bored and checked your tracking number for you. 🙂
From my own personal experience dealing with the tracking sites of both a European postal system and USPS for a single postal shipment destined for the US, the information entered on each can definitely vary widely, and it’s sometimes hard to tell which website is accurate. As others have suggested, I would definitely recommend printing out and scanning in the information at both postal system websites and keeping them in a safe place. Where dealings with the IRS are concerned, the motto “better safe than sorry” is more than appropriate!
@SeeingRed, could you please tell me the URL for the site where you’re seeing that? I’m frequently checking both the UK Royal Mail tracking site and the USPS tracking site, and both are still saying delivery was attempted on the 8th but failed.
Sorry, I misread – thought you were saying it had been delivered. Wishful thinking!
Yes, it has arrived at numerous USPS facilities, and departed again. Or so the USPS tracking site wouldd have one believe. I look forward to the day it arrives at its destination. 🙂
@iota: Well, the USPS tracking site says your shipment departed the Philadelphia facility at 8:50 pm yesterday. TheIre is no mail delivery at that time of night, so one could rightfully “assume” that the delivery will be made today, February 11th. But we all know the danger in the word “ASS U ME”.
My advice is to keep checking the USPS website (where, by the way, I could see absolutely nothing about an attempt to deliver your shipment on February 8th, but rather your shipment arriving on that date at the Mechanicsburg facility). You’ll have to hope that the information is updated promptly and accurately. Good luck! 🙂
“Well, the USPS tracking site says your shipment departed the Philadelphia facility at 8:50 pm yesterday….”
Unfortunately, it’s been saying similar things for several days. I’ve spoken to RM, who confirm it hasn’t yet been delivered but say it will happen soon. We’ll see!
@iota: To my jaded mind, both the IRS and the USPS share the same degenerate DNA, meaning that you can take anything that they post on their websites with a grain of salt. Or a wee dram of single malt Scottish whisky. Personally, I prefer the latter.