Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Heidi
I am not accusing you of anything. It is just that this is a canadian site and what is good for canadian duals is not always the same for other countries.
George- I dont agree. I think these phrases dont hold water. There is a lot a country can do to comply with America. The banks would be the first to protect their assets and not want to pay any withholding. I also think that times are changing and transparency will be all the more intrusive in the future. Things are not going to get any better for lack of any wins in a court of law. I still have my fingers crossed, but what I think will happen is that the courts will decide in favour of anything that feeds the pockets of those in power. If all the countries in the world have crumbled under american pressure- what does that bode for the future?
Sorry to be so bleak- but I dont have a good feeling about the future. If anything, technology is getting better in finding people. Now they even want to use fingerprints and irises to identify people coming in and out of America. I think it will become harder and harder to hide.
Is it’s any consolation, I was fingerprinted and iris printed(?) in the USA about five years ago. I was a tad freaked. By the one and only immigration officer who ever advised me, quite nicely actually, that I should and could travel on a US passport. I advised him I was Canadian even though he of course noted my born in the USA imprimatur on my passport.
Anyway, one could conclude I am in the system. I have never been harassed or stopped when crossing the US border since then nor since I have become a plaintiff. It could just be luck; it could be a consequence of uncoordinated systems that possibly may have been updated by now.
I am not hiding. I assume I have a huge bull’s eye on my skinny plaintiff backside. 90% of the time I fly overseas it is from Detroit- cheaper and closer than Toronto.
Two years ago I along with everyone crossing by car that morning got caught up in a zero hour detention. It’s when they pull in everybody at the same time. The only question they asked was where we were heading. They took our passports to their computer terminals, did a whole lot of typing, said no other words to us, and then released everyone 45 minutes later. No cell phones, computers, tablets etc were allowed to be taken in.
My point is: until someone really decides otherwise, I carry on my life as usual.Fear is such a crippling emotion. But I am a risk taker. Others are more cautious and self protective. One is not necessarily better or worse than the other.
Maybe its a start! Dunno bout the iris prints and the electronics junk. But, back in the DAY, you just pulled up next to the shack next to the road, guy comes out, and “Where ya from?, where ya goin?, Got eny oranges? Eat em now or give em to me!, Have a good day!”
@Polly
I agree with you. Even if someone is currently able to fly under the radar, that will no doubt change as technology makes it easier for governments to track individuals. Also, I personally don’t put too much faith in the belief that Canadians enjoy special protections; the reality is that governments and their policies change, so what may be true today may not be tomorrow.
I’ve been dragging my heels for a few years, hoping that circumstances would change for the better but instead the opposite has happened — the application fee has skyrocketed as has the US dollar, making expatriation even more expensive. Moreover, getting a loss of nationality appointment in Canada is becoming increasingly difficult. There are about a million US citizens living in Canada, but only seven consulates in the entire country process expatriations. Several consulates, such as Vancouver and Montreal, aren’t even booking appointments they are so backlogged.
So, this is the year I’m renouncing. I’m not happy about the expense and hassle, but this situation has caused me years of stress. I’m tired of all the paperwork that’s so complicated I need an accountant to prove to the IRS I don’t owe them anything, I’m tired of worrying about whether I’ll wake up one morning to find my bank accounts closed because of FATCA, and I’m tired of not being able to plan for my retirement without having to make endless compromises.
I’ve had years to think and brood and complain and feel sorry for myself; time wasted, as far as I’m concerned. Time to take action, which in my case means doing things by the book. I’m not rich so I doubt the IRS has the inclination or resources to come after small fish such as myself, but I’d rather do this cleanly. I’ll be paying the US$2350 and filing every little document the IRS wants. Then it’s done and dusted, and I can move on with my life.
The kicker? I have never even lived in the US.
Yes, woofy those were the days. Now, it’s: got tomatoes? What is nice is that you can check prohibited items on their websites.
@Polly
The kicker? I have never even lived in the US.
I completely understand your decision. This is what two governments have done to you. I look forward to hearing from you on your emancipation day.
@Westcoaster
That kicker tastes SOOOOO bitter! But yeah- amen.
As many have said here before , there is no one solution that fits all of us. That is why it’s important to discuss the pros and cons of each path.
Some refuse to even accept the label of American that the US have hoisted on them and refuse to play by US rules. Others if if they can scrape up the fee to renounce cannot then afford the compliance costs. While the rest of us ‘lucky ones’ can make a clean exit. We must all chose the option that we can live with.
I wish you Westcoaster all the best in your decision.
Polly, I meant no disrespect but just wanted to make the point that I don’t ‘recommend’ one course of action over any other.
I believe you and I are already emancipated.:-)
@Heidi
I agree with you. Each case has to be viewed individually. Advice has to be weighed accordingly.
Yes “emancipated” – but having lived abroad for over 50 years made renunciation easier. Although I can get pangs of nostalgia in the Blue Ridge Mountains or walking along Madison Ave, it isn’t my home and has not been forever. I find a lot of what is being decided there bizarr. A friend the other day refused to believe me when I told him about civil forfeiture. I had to send him links. He was flabbergasted. Nobody can really believe what America is doing to its expats, either.
@polly
The blue ridge mountains were my first introduction to the US, but as a once naturalised American, a European born and educated, I felt no loss or remorse at renunciation. I felt a great sense of anger tempered by sadness that a nation built on such great principles should have fallen so
low. Jefferson would turn in his grave.
@Heidi
Agree!!!!!
As I mentioned before, I am planning to do my tax returns and FBARs following the renunciation with an ITIN. I have been in contact with some accountants and lawyers to get price estimates. Some of them have warned me that this is not a safe as the IRS will find out about me before I have settled my tax compliancy. It could be difficult to enter the Streamlined this way. What do you think? Is it better to first apply for a new passport and SSN and then renounce? I already got the appointment for renunciation scheduled at the embassy.
@Joe, if you do you returns and the 8854 together with an ITIN application there’s no need or reason to enter Streamlined. You’re done, finished, finito. Unless you need help to fill in the forms don’t waste your time on lawyers/accountants – they only want to make money off your situation and will not give you the best advice.
If you try for an SSN then you’ll have to cancel the renunciation and probably have to wait 2 years for the SSN to get sorted out, then make another appointment which will probably still take months so you’re looking at 2.5-3 years minimum.
There are so many uncertainties. I guess I will just take one step at a time and see what happens.
Joe. The compliance condors who told you that are smoking bad dope. That particular advice applies to wealthy Americans deliberately hiding large sums offshore.
That ain’t you.
Streamlined is for those who wish to remain US citizens. It is difficult to obtain either a SS number or a passport. The SS number requires a trip to the US and a year of bullshit.
Stick to your plan. Renounce and then either file 5 yrs. with a TIN and form 8854 or don’t bother filing anything. The IRS only has resources for whales- not minnows.
Yes, I just want to get this over with as soon as possible and return to life.
@Joe, then renounce as soon as you can and file if you want to. Do the best you can with the forms and send them in with your 8854/ITIN application and be done with it. Trying to go the other way will only delay things by years, not a few months.
@Joe….this is like a one step program with AA. You do what you can, you accept what you can do and then you leave the rest……
Steps (dependent on ones situation).
The era of the “expat American” is over and done, its finished. So what do you do?
1.) Get another citizenship if you do not already have one, by descent or naturalise. THAT IS NUMERO UNO.
2.) If you gain another citizenship, treat it as a relinquishment and DOCUMENT that with affadavits. IF you can not afford to buy a CLN you stop here and live your life.
3.) If you have another citizenship and can not buy a CLN, get a job that can be treated as a relinquishing act, docuement same and live your life.
4.) The gold plan is buying a CLN but you need $$$$$ to get that. IF you have the money to buy it, probably best to buy it but if you can not afford the Cadillac you settle for a Chevy and live your life.
Joe, this is not advice, just information.
Several years ago I renounced. The only paperwork I submitted was an 8854, no tax returns. I had no SSN, and I did not have an ITIN. I did not apply for an ITIN, due to the BS required around submitting ID to do so. I also included a nasty letter.
I have never heard so much as a peep from the IRS or Treasury.
FWIW
@George, we’ve already established Joe is a dual citizen from birth and he’s already booked his renunciation appointment with the embassy/consulate.
Joe
After you have renounced you will be solely a Swedish citizen. The US will have no hold over you. Your whole adult life has been spent in Sweden, you have no assets in the US. You have no SSN, you are not in their system. They use threats and fear because they know the is little they can do. They are overwhelmed and
not interested in minnows.
Try doing the back filing yourself or employ a
firm such as greenback expat tax services if it will help you sleep at night.
You are a dual from birth, so if you back file your 5 yrs, then you are excused any assessment for covered expat status.
@ Joe
My husband did the best he could with the final form filing (no condors to consult in our area). He figured if they had questions he would deal with them then. So far, no questions. Four years to go on the Statute of Limitations (assuming that it is actually 6 years).
@ The Mom
A nasty letter? Wow … tipping my toque to you. 🙂
@EmBee
I believe the courts limited it to 3 yrs on 1040’s tax returns, but I believe they got a 6 yr pass on 8854 and the like….
@joe
If your income is below approx $ 101,000./yr (wages or self employment), then you should qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion. I believe it is a simplified form, 2555. You could take a look at that and see if you qualify.
I don’t think there is any statute of limitations on IRS Form 8854. If it is filed late or not at all no matter your net worth, no matter whether or not born dual, the US says you are a *covered expatriate*. The question – will the US pursue the minnows?. The better question, will Canada or other countries protect ALL of its citizens — i.e., Canada says it will not collect for the US for any Canadian citizen from the time the person became a Canadian citizen.