Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Thank you! I don’t think my assets will amount to that sum.
@Joe
Sorry I can’t recommend a tax preparer.I was up to date when I renounced.
You could ask this question again on the expat tax and fbar section. Maybe someone with recent experience may pick up the thread and recommend someone. I do remember reading somewhere that H&R block weren’t much good.
You should also read the Consulate report directory where others have reported their various experiences , so you can familiarise yourself with the proceedure.
@heidi
I love how the US embassy’s “list” their local tax accountants, yet then go on to denounce them as “unreliable” (ie: “we make no clam as to their competency”)…wtf?
Well, there’s quite the scam? List people to help us & then wash hands as they net you $$$ via incompetency which you point to & say, “we never promised you a rose garden?”??? Hmm…no way that could possibly be a scam, right? I’d say it must be “sue-able”?
@ All @Molly
Well, this morning I have just experienced my second OMG moment and it is worse than the first. I was reading further back ( typical Ginny, always late to the game) in this area and came across Molly’s experience. This is the most reprehensible action documented by anyone I have come across so far. I could not believe what I was reading. Molly, I don’t know if you still read here but I am wondering how you are because I cannot imagine a worse horror story and it doesn’t take being a lawyer to recognize how wrong the decision was.
If you think I can be of any help, feel free to ask a mod for my email address. This grievous decision needs to overturned. I also hope the damn CCLA has or is reading about this event. I have never been angrier!! I need to stop typing or I am going to use profanity on a public board.
@Jane.
We used an embassy listed one to do our last returns + the 8854 as we thought they would be more knowledgable than our regular US accountant. BIG mistake, we found at least 6 mistakes that we had to point out and then have corrected. No apology, no reduction in fees. It seems no one is responsible or ‘accountable’ for deciphering their thousands of pages of rule but ourselves.
@Joe
Maybe you need a professional opinion as to whether you’ve relinquished before you go to a compliance person who always errs on the side of caution?
@Buublebustin
As unfair as it may seem, from what joe has told us, it doesn’t sound like he has committed any expatriating act.
Who would one go to for advice? The embassies seem to know less than Brockers.
Joe. H&R has a bad reputation here. Look at Greenback ExPat Tax Services. Phil Hodgen’s latest post is on this very subject. Well worth reading . I’m not sure he is 100% correct because he doesn’t mention the choice of filing with a TIN. Good luck.
@Bubblebustin, Joe was only a private in the Swedish military so doesn’t quality that way, hasn’t worked for the Swedish government so that’s out and was born dual so naturalisation doesn’t come into it. Short of committing a treasonous act against the United States I think he’s out of relinquishment options.
I am get nervous about the covered expatriate status. As I haven’t been tax compliant the last five years I will get that status. Will this mean that I will be subject to the exit tax? Is that a permanent status? Will it be cancelled after I’ve done back-filing after the renunciation?
@Joe, only if you don’t file your returns will you become a covered expat. You are not a covered expat now so don’t worry on that score. If your income/wealth figures are below the covered expat threshholds then filing your back returns and eventually the 8854 will do the trick.
Joe If you expatriate this year, you will have until June 15 2017 to file those 5 yrs of returns and the infamous 8854. At that point you will not be a covered expatriate. The IRS doesn’t have the resources to bother a Swedish citizen, living in Sweden who doesn’t actually owe them any money.
Joe, you will only be covered if you don’t file those 5 yrs and the 8854. You have until June 2017 to get it sorted out.
Thank you. I was tired and tried to take in too much information and it made me confused. I think I need to take a pause from this matter for a while 🙂
@Joe, good idea. There’s a lot to get your head around and you need to understand your options clearly before you make any decisions. Take your time, do your research and only when you have the answer that is best for you personally should you take action.
@Medea FleeceStealer says
“@Bubblebustin, Joe was only a private in the Swedish military so doesn’t quality that way, hasn’t worked for the Swedish government so that’s out and was born dual so naturalisation doesn’t come into it.”
If you are a private in the military, doesn’t that in fact make you a government employee? I know the military is not part of the government (fortunately), but your paycheques are in fact signed by the government.
Philosophically, I think this is all crap– a severe human rights violation. $2350 to renounce, travel costs and time off work, plus another $6k in accounting fees. Total bullshit. Ten thousand dollars to exercise a human right which should be free.
Doc The thinking is probably that in many countries, Israel & South Korea for example, military service is not voluntary. I agree with everything you say and with your course of action. Too bad more can’t follow your example.
@Joe,
We understand how you feel. We have all been through it.
Something to mull over while you are taking a break….Many have renounced, so they have their cln for the banks and then done nothing tax filing wise. You don’t have a SSN, you are thousands of miles away, the IRS have limited resources to track and collect and you are a small fish, probably not worth their while. What can they do, send you a letter, then another?
Do you have any reason to travel to the US again?
@Heidi
Sweden is not Canada. They can do a LOT.
Polly
Have you heard of any reports of this?
Surely any tax violation has to be also a violation in Sweden. Joe has paid his swedish taxes. He doesn’t even have a SSN in the US, he is not in their system.
What a travesty, just because his parents thought getting him a US passport as a child would make it easier to visit his Grandparents.
At the age of adulthood he chose not to renew it but to be Swedish. Surely that is an adult choice, not a parential one.
@Heidi
I think it is common sense. Tax evasion is a crime in Sweden- even if it is another country`s taxes which have been avoided. Sweden will do nothing to protect Joe. It is kind of like murder is a crime which is acknowledged in every country. Tax evasion is in most but not all countries too. Canada said it would not collect on duals. Switzerland also has certain advantages because tax evasion is not a huge crime in Switzerland, so it looks like for now they will also not do anything to help America in its quest. But as for the “adult choice”- since when do we have any choice in the matter? America defines who is american. As far as I know. Sweden is an ally of America and doing its bidding. Germany too- I think they might even extradite in cases of tax evasion. Most of the world does not have any protections for their duals against these american demands. This is why I think it is very dangerous to recommend going into hiding when one is not a canadian citizen. That could be ruinous.
@polly
I am not recommending anything! Please do not accuse me of this.
I just stated what others had done in similar circumstances.
@Heidi, on such matters I am often in disagreement with @Polly.
In regards to collection, the US has painted itself into a corner. The reality is that there are very few collection agreements that they can use.
The US does have collection agreements with France, Canada, Sweden, Denmark, and the Netherlands. In regards to Canada, it is well known the position with respect to Canadian Citizens.
It would naturally be prudent for Joe to examine the USA/Sweden tax treaty himself.
Article 27 is the relevent section of the US Sweden treaty which states;
“4. The assistance provided for in this Article shall not be accorded with respect to the citizens,
companies, or other entities of the State to which the application is made, except as is necessary to
insure that the exemption or reduced rate of tax granted under this Convention to such citizens,
companies, or other entities shall not be enjoyed by persons not entitled to such benefits.”
Conclusion? Sweden is not going to assist the USA in collecting against Joe. Joe is a Swedish Citizen resident in Sweden, he is NOT a US Citizen resident in Sweden. Dual/Multi Citizenship does not exist in law, only one citizenship is recognized in time and place.
The reality IS most of the world does have protections for their Citizens resident in their countries against these american demands.
Further reading;
http://federaltaxcrimes.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/us-international-tax-enforcement.html
@Heidi..that said…it makes great sense for anyone to ditch their US status any way they can! Get a CLN if you can afford it, relinquish if you can not buy the CLN…but get rid of US Citizenship.
Keeping US Citizenship in your back pocket will cause problems and burn a big hole in it.
Thanks George.
The other consideration is the cost to collect. Extraditions are extremely expensive , hundreds of thousands of $’s and certainly not worth their while in Joe’s case.
It’s the banks doing the collection that is more scarey.