Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Calgary
Maybe the american government needs to be reminded of what your son would COST them should he be in America and need social and medical aid. Maybe THAT would get them to realise he`ll cost more than he will bring in and maybe they will let him become a canadian that way.
Thanks, Polly, but…
My son is a Canadian, born in Calgary, AB and never lived a day of his life in the US or had any benefit from the US — and, as far as I’m concerned, only a Canadian. I refuse the former Conservative government’s definition of my son, born in Canada, as a US citizen who happens to abide in Canada and I await clear evidence from the new Liberal Prime Minister that *A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian*. I’m not about to remind the US of anything regarding any costs pertaining to my son. They clearly don’t have the interests of such as my son in mind.
Based on this 1998 report, the GAO would estimate each of us is worth $10,156 in additional revenue in today’s dollars. The fact that the compliance fees would cost many of us an additional 20% or more is irrelevant to them.
“Treasury suggested that the revenue impact of nonfiling abroad may be limited by the foreign earned income and housing expense exclusions and foreign tax credits. While available exclusions and credits would tend to reduce the revenue impact of nonfiling abroad, we note that the impact would not necessarily be rendered insignificant. Some nonfilers lose eligibility for the exclusions, and the average tax liability of those who did file from abroad was about $6,700 in 1995, despite available exclusions and credits. Also, the IRS studies that Treasury cited as evidence of limited impact involved a small number of taxpayers27 and cannot be used to estimate the impact of nonfiling abroad because of serious data limitations, as noted in our 1993 report.” Page 20 here:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/230/225849.pdf
The reality of getting less & less, coupled with laws designed to strip individual rights, has led us to this point.
People no longer expect respect & competence from their gov’ts & only rant their disapproval at the opposite experience w/o demanding it change.
It’s Stockholm Syndrome, but as a mass hysteria affecting our actual, everyday lives & lifetimes.
How do you mount a cohesive, union-type rebellion once there’s a new world order?
It’s getting very scary…
@Jane
Yes- it gets increasingly scary when one cannot trust one`s own government! They say Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Switzerland have the most trustworthy and least corrupt governments in the world. But when I hear the news, it seems as if other governments become more and more lethal and predatory each day. Its like a scourge.
@George said: “the People of Canada welcomed you to Canada even though you were then a foreigner. You were educated in Canada, trained in Canada, the People of Canada invested in you. You are reciprocating with your absolute loyalty to the Nation of Canada which you have done by becoming one of them and dedicating your work to whom are now your Countrymen.
You have relinquished your USC and have made the personal decision of not requesting a foreign document based on foreign law to prove a negative.”
Well said, George! Thank you again for your extremely helpful postings here at Brock. Your comments and insights have been extremely to me.
All the best!
BC Doc
@BC Doc, everyone is looking at CBT and FATCA and American Exceptionalism from different eyes. Your eyes are that of a diagnostician. If someone presents to you elevated blood pressure whilst you do have tools to lower the blood pressure with chemicals (medicine), you will be interested in the root problem and what is causing it so if possible you can cut off and maybe cut out the root problem creating a cure rather than masking the symptoms with chemicals (medicine).
CBT and FATCA is no different and it is a disease that you and I both have been afflicted with even though there was nothing in our power to avoid it!
Hence the conclusion of radical unorthodox surgery accomplished with the available surgical instruments available.
Because without that surgery, the death of the patient would clearly result.
I am truly saddened and it really bothers me that many young people sought out medical/veterinary education outside the USA which was paid largely by subsidy of other countries and now those persons are considered to have some sort of required loyalty back to the USA. But I have relief knowing that their education puts them in a position where they have the skills and ability to put the disease into remission if they utilize those skills.
Hello all. First of all, I want to thank everyone on this board for their incredible support and information over the past couple of years. I am so grateful to the many people here at Isaac Brock who have so selflessly and generously offered me their time, direction and suggestions. You are amazing. Your help has been the one bright light in this experience of dealing with my U.S. citizenship.
I have been absent from this blog for quite some time, as I needed to take a break from all the stress and anxiety that my U.S. citizenship has caused me. In any event, my relinquishment story is an unusual one. My appointment to apply for a back-dated relinquishment was in July 2014 in Calgary. My relinquishment was based on employment with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC), beginning in 1999. I’m a dual, born in the U.S. to Canadian parents, moved back to Canada when I was five and in the more than 50 years since, have only been back to the U.S. a few times. I’ve never held a U.S. passport, never worked or lived in the U.S., never owned property there, never voted there, etc.
The vice consul made my relinquishment appointment a very unpleasant experience. He was patronizing, combative and told me flat-out that he was recommending my application be denied, based on the fact that he didn’t consider the CBC to be a crown corporation. Fast forward to May 2015, almost a year later. I received an email from the Calgary consulate telling me that a CLN had been sent to me “in error”, and could I please return it. They stated that the DoS was very close to making a decision in my case, but they would need the CLN back. A few days later, I received a CLN stamped approved November 2014, six months earlier. A friend of mine who is a lawyer advised me to keep the CLN until I heard further from the consulate. In September, the consulate contacted me again, asking for the CLN back. This time I contacted the consulate and asked that they explain to me exactly how my CLN had been approved in error. The woman I spoke to, who was very nice, could not answer that, other than to say, she believed it was “placed on the wrong pile” and mistakenly approved. She told me that my CLN was useless without back-up documentation and would not be helpful if I presented it to the IRS or at the border. I asked her if there was any decision on my case and she said she believed there was, but they wouldn’t release it without the CLN returned. I decided to send the CLN back, knowing that they had likely denied my application. And I was right. About three weeks later, I received a letter from the DoS, saying that they determined the CBC was a “hybrid entity” that combined elements of both public and private sectors and as such, “would not place those in their employ within the purview of INA 349(a)(4).”
This whole process, which took almost 15 months, was brutal and now I’m wondering if it’s worth appealing. I’m curious to hear what others think. The huge hike in the renunciation fee is just more salt in the wound. I think the hardest emotion to deal with around all of this is the anger. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
Molly I commented on the other thread as well. A couple of thoughts as to the advice that the CLN would not have been useful at the border or with the IRS. So far you have been able to travel without a U.S. passport. No reason not to continue. So far you have had nothing to do with the IRS. No reason to start now. If a Canadian FI asks your citizenship, follow BCDocs example and say ‘Canadian’. If they ask where you were born say NYOB or maybe make up a Canadian place of birth. Good luck.
You grace (i.e., Duke of Devon) are you suggesting that people lie, i.e., knowingly deny the truth? As far as I am concerned that will not be a wise practice.
I renounced my US Citizenship last week in the US Embassy of one of the smaller European holdings. A senior staff member told me that they were EVEN NOW installing new equipment in that Embassy because as of 1st January next year the staff will not only be working for the US DoS but the IRS as well. This is due to new legislation passed in the USA as part of the new ‘Highway Code’. Those laws will ensure that US passports will not be renewed – and current passports revoked – for US citizens who owe taxes in excess of $50,000 – inclusive of any penalties that may be owed – or for those who have not filed post that current and the closest previous year. Their holding of these documents will – under investigation – automatic and lawful I was told upon questioning. (Given that the universal ‘they’ supposedly estimate that only 700,000 of 7.6 million American ex-pats pay taxes AT ALL that will be quite a little cottage industry I should imagine … and while I realise that only 35% of Americans actually HAVE passports – the percentage amongst those who ARE American and live abroad must surely be larger.) Perhaps you are suggesting, your grace, that those who HAVE US passports should never enter a US embassy and therefore deny their own ‘inalienable’ right to renounce. As far as I’m concerning maintaining your personal truth is key to fulfilling your own personal freedoms no matter where you should live … given that we all have to live with ourselves. In choosing to lie surely you only ‘self-restrict’. It is not something I, myself, would be happy to practice. Perhaps I just come from a different world … but then I was raised by Depression reared parents. For them, right was white and wrong was black. Grey was most often not in the equation. Theirs was obviously a VERY different world.
@Meunier
So that means they take your passport away BEFORE you can renounce? Or can somebody renounce anyway even without a passport?
There are many articles about this on the internet. Look for one from TIME MAGAZINE (still fairly reputable I think) entitled: ‘Didn’t pay your taxes you could lose your passport’. As I understand it – if you owe $50,000 – or might be thought to owe such with penalties – you would – as of 1st January 2016 automatically have your passport revoked – certainly while under investigation. (I suppose if they didn’t do that the new law would – proverbally – have no teeth – let alone bite). That may sound like a lot of money to you and me … but you have to remember that – since it became law in 2010 – if you DIDN’T file an FBAR for any one year since then – the stated penalty is $10,000 a day. That would mean you could easily have amassed that amount, i.e., $50,000+ – in less than a week. IF THAT IS ACCURATE – then your US passport could be revoked at ANY juncture – i.e., whether or not you were going to renounce. If they are putting new equipment in Embassies and I assume borders they must be serious. One article I read here in the UK had an authority saying that you should DEFINITELY be tax compliant by the end of this current (i.e., 2015) year. Sadly that leaves very little time now with the all the holidays and such.
@Molly
Sorry to learn about your terrible experience with the Calgary consulate and DOS. I helped my neighbour relinquish last year through the same consulate– her experience with the consular staff was similar. She said the consular officer was rude, aggressive, nit-picky and over the top.
Pretty crazy that they sent you a completed CLN in error and then contacted you several months later demanding that you send it back. I can believe it though– about a decade ago, the Vancouver consulate send us a completed Record of Birth Abroad certificate along with supporting documents for someone else by mistake. When I contacted the consulate, the staff person I spoke with was pretty mortified.
Regarding the errantly issued CLN, if I were in your shoes, I probably would have sent it back, but only after making some certified copies for my records. As this is a public forum, I won’t ask you if you did this!!!
What to do at this point? If you’re set on getting the CLN, I think I would try to appeal the decision if the appeal is free. Do the people at the State Department live in a bubble (yes)? It’s pretty clear to anyone who can find Canada on a map, that the CBC is a crown corporation. If you went to work for Radio Cuba, would they say its private and not part of the Cuban government? Crazy.
The other option is the “Do It Yourself” route. As Duke alluded to, I tried to officially relinquish my USC but was denied. At that point, I said F___ it, I’m not playing the United States game. Right to change nationality is a human right (as codified in the UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights– signed on to by the US). I don’t need to ask permission to exercise my right. F_____ them. I asked myself, does the right belong to me, or do they own me? I refuse to play by their games. Since my failed attempt to officially document my previous relinquishment at the consulate, I have travelled multiple times to the US on my Canadian passport, declaring myself as Canadian only. If I am ever challenged on this by an aggressive US border agent, I am happy to push back.
Again, I am sorry to hear about your experience with the Calgary consulate. You have options. I would suggest not letting them own you.
@Meunier says:
“You grace (i.e., Duke of Devon) are you suggesting that people lie, i.e., knowingly deny the truth? As far as I am concerned that will not be a wise practice.”
Many of those people, myself included, do not consider ourselves to be USC. Why would we cooperate with an unjust law which will result in our private Canadian financial information being handed over to a hostile, foreign power? If my bank ask, I am BC_Doc, Canadian and Canadian only. And I was born in Montreal.
@BC_Doc
I understand your choice. I am ONLY saying that I would not feel comfortable (i.e., would lose sleep) in undertaking such practices myself. That is all I can say …and say such ONLY FOR MYSELF. I feel much more comfortable in having renounced officially and now openly being able to state – without any suggestion of subterfuge in ANY regard whatsoever – that I am a NON American person. Proud to be so.
By the way, I was born in Canada as well. EXTREMELY proud of that fact TOO. Indeed, even MORE so.
@BC_DOC
Why not just renounce and totally have done with it. Then no questions will ever again need to be asked.
@BC_DOC
Why not just renounce and totally have done with it? Then no questions will ever again need to be asked.
@George
I grew up in Boston– I was a grade school kid during the 1970s when the Bicentennial celebration was going on. As kids, we learned the American Revolution inside and out. Faneuil Hall, Bunker Hill, the Old North Church, Paul Revere’s House, the Lexington Battle Green, the “rude bridge” in Concord– I learned about them in school, but even more so from being a kid growing up in Boston. Coming from the so-called “cradle of liberty”, for the life of me, I can’t figure out how a nation conceived in a fight over “taxation without representation” insists on inflicting the same practice on its expats.
@BC_Doc –
Me too. It is clear – after recently struggling to understand amidst much anxiety – that as an American ex-pat living abroad you are – given that you have no immediate US representation – voiceLESS. Nay, you might as well be dead … much as those who identify themselves as ‘homelanders’ on the US mainland might well prefer.
Charming.
@Meunier
For me, this is a huge human rights issue with the US government persecuting 9 million of its ex-pats with CBT and FATCA. As I’ve said, I own my citizenship– the US govt doesn’t own me. I am not an anxious person so I really don’t feel the need to spend $2350 USD (or $3280 Canadian) of my hard earned money to purchase a piece of paper that several months from now the State Department or US Supreme Court may decide was issued in error. I am a Canadian living in Canada. As a Canadian citizen, I expect the Canadian government to protect me from the overreach of a hostile foreign government.
@BC_Doc
I do understand. Still, – and forgive me for playing devil’s advocate here – surely both the Canadian and certainly the UK governments SIGNED the FATCA agreements as a dual contract with the USA, allowing such to be enforced within their respective sovereign territories? If so, what price that protection I wonder?
I have a friend who has a strong desire to renounce their U.S. citizenship. They don’t have a second citizenship, which means renouncing will render them stateless.
They’re fine with becoming stateless, but have a major concern: although there is conflicting information on the subject, it seems that after renouncing one remains a U.S. citizen until their CLN is processed by the State Department, which can apparently take up to 9 months. The concern is that if they remain a U.S. citizen, they could be deported by the nation they are staying in back to the United States, where they would then become trapped as a stateless person. This outcome would be terrible given it is the exact opposite of what they are hoping to achieve.
What are your thoughts on this?
@WantToBeFree
This friend needs to go to a country with the easiest permanent residency requirement that they can. Dominican Republic is one. Check out “International Man” for others.
It’s not cheap, but better than ending up a prisoner in the US gulag?
Well, my friend is hoping to renounce in Spain. Europe generally treats stateless individuals well, and the Schengen Area’s free movement laws allow travel through many different countries.
The only concern is the timeframe between renouncing and receiving the CLN.
@WantToBeFree, the question is why do they think they might be deported? Also note that although it’s not illegal to make yourself stateless, some embassies/consulates have refused to allow a renunciation because of this.
My other concern, given the current migrant crisis in Europe is that some EU countries are tightening up on border checks and just having an EU ID card/permit may not be enough in the future without a passport of some kind to back it up.
Do they live in Spain and if so how long have they been there? They could apply for Spanish citizenship if they’re been there 10 years and meet the requirements to apply. Any chance of citizenship by descent through parents/grandparents?