Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Calgary
So much hypocrisy. I would not risk it by saying somebody or something else forced me, either.
And since when is somebody who works for an embassy a doctor who can determine mental health?
I despair at what is going on, and getting worse.
@Notamused…
I ordered a certified copy of my CLN over a year ago from the passport records office in Virginia. They are actually quite helpful and friendly. It requires a $50 US money order or check to get it certified. Non-certified copies are free.
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/passports/services/obtain-copies-of-passport-records.html
BC_Doc’s question is an interesting idea but it would take a really dedicated shit disturber to make such a declaration during their renunciation process because there is lot of downside risk with no upside. Once a person has finally realized the only way to stop the punishment is taking the drastic step of ditching their US citizenship its not likely they would risk jeopardizing the process. Upon reaching that point an individual just wants to escape from the merry go round, not change it.
Besides, the Consulate staff know perfectly well what is going on but are powerless to do anything about it. A damning statement won’t alter the course of the Titanic one iota. In fact, I bet you could ask any US government employee at any level in any department and they would all tell you the same thing. They believe the US government and the country are going to hell in a hand basket but they are powerless to do anything about it. They are all just hanging on hoping they can retire and start collecting their fat pensions before the whole thing blows up in their faces.
The US is now on a trajectory that can only end in disaster, everyone knows it, but no one can figure out what to do about it. Things just keep getting worse and worse down there and nobody knows what to do except for idiots like Donald Trump. There is no good news anymore. That’s the state of the union, folks. What a mess.
We can’t hope for the US to fix CBT/FATCA; we can only hope to neuter it here in Canada.
@BC Doc, @Maz……
In my neck of the woods, self documented relinquishment is rising in popularity for those that can not afford the fee structure otherwise. The easiest being getting sworn in as a ________ Citizen and having the Judge/Dignatary witness and attest a seperately drawn up statement.
Nine out ten applying for local citizenship are now getting such a signed statement and I know some are not getting a CLN.
For those that are not naturalising I have run into a handful of folks taking ANY part time government job in order to document a relinquishment.
Is that a perfect solution? Not by far but it gets you closer to surviving, one step closer….
As a take off to what BC Doc said, what if a relinquisher applied for a US Passport under duress from a Border Guard but states on the passport application and fully documents that they completed the relinquishing act with intent? What will State do?
The problem is that the current US State Department Passport application does not mesh with the reality of having to pay for a CLN!!!! This is a car with the brake pads worn down to the metal having to do an emergency braking on the highway.
In the past, we know that if you filled out a passport application and answered the questions that you volunatrily and relinquished with intent…before you knew it they sent you a CLN.
I have relinquished without a CLN, will not apply for one similiar philosophy to Lynne, but have had no problems visiting the US with my ESTA from a Visa waiver country. Unless I was specifically told to get a passport, there is no upside in me testing this idea because I would be afraid they would issue me a passport instead of a rejection letter.
@BenG
Fantastic, thanks for posting that again. I knew someone had reported on doing that. Looking at that website, it isn’t at all obvious that you can get a copy of a CLN there. Good to know, just in case. 😉
Rosa Parks could have chosen to sit at the back of the bus, or walked instead.
BC Doc’s suggestion could quite possibly be the equivalent of what Rosa chose to do that day. Rosa had no control over how others would react to her claiming her right to be treated equally – but that didn’t matter to her. The time was right for Rosa to do what she did, but it was still not without risk for her.
Who’s willing to be our Rosa Parks?
@Bubbles….I like BC Docs idea but it needs refining…..
Showing up wanting to renounce without paying is not going to get the most gas mileage because US Code spells out renouncing.
I think the relinquisher who NEEDS a CLN to conduct their life but can not pay for it is the monkey wrench in the gear box.
Ditto on the relinquisher who applies for a US Passport because “they are told/warned to” but states on the form they relinquished, they did it voluntarily and with intent and the US of A can ______ .
@Calgary…..thinking about your history which is incredibly valuable to all of us. Lets see, you did a bonafide relinquishment but at the border one day you were told you needed a US Passport.
So you applied for one. When you applied, which I believe was under duress, did you state that you had naturalised with intent to relinquish? Or did you take a non-argumentative route?
George, thanks for your logical question to me.
Unfortunately, I was ahead of the wave of information that became available at Brock. I was not even likely clear at that time the difference between claiming relinquishment by 1975 naturalization and renunciation. What a novice I was. The perfect unknowledgeable Canadian who thought she had lost US citizenship decades ago — angry because that IS what I was warned would happen. No, and I regret that I did not do just that — stated that I had become a Canadian citizen with the intent to relinquish. I regret to say that since I took that step I also took another that I sorely wish I had not — I voted as I had the opportunity to lend my angry voice in a US election FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME SINCE residence in Canada and, not only that, voted for you know who — the absolute naive knee-jerk reaction. A punishment each day — I wish I had not been so hasty. My many regrets remain with me. I am Exhibit A of what not to do — hopefully able to warn others about things they themselves should not do in their courses of action / decisions. My actions were all reactive, not well thought-out.
I am also an example of a US Person who had no idea of citizenship taxation responsibilities. I have asked so many if they knew of US citizenship-based taxation from their US education, homelanders and former homelanders alike, many journalists. Not one of any that I asked said they knew what US CBT was or even that here was such a phenomenon. None!
@Bubblebustin. Rosa Parks is a very inspirational figure but there is a fundamental difference between her situation and the one faced by expats. Namely, she was a person who was heroically standing up for her right to be treated equally IN THE US. At least she had the force of law behind her; we do not. What the US is doing to expats is all perfectly legal under US law.
Expats, by definition, do not wish to live in the US. By the time an expat makes the decision to renounce, they have reached the point where they simply want the US out of their lives finally and forever. Making that renunciation decision is, in fact, a realization and acknowledgement that the US will never change and its past time to get out and move on with one’s life. The fact they now charge US$2350 as an impediment to do so just proves what they think about US citizens who live out of the country. (You know, let’s not miss the opportunity to screw you one more time on your way out the door.) How can you care about trying to change a country which quite obviously doesn’t give a rat’s ass that they are making the lives of its expats impossible?
The US hates and punishes anything foreign and expats are foreign in the minds of Homelanders. An analogy would be the battered wife with broken bones and a concussion who thinks that marriage counseling is going to persuade her criminal husband to suddenly become mister nice guy.
@Maz57
Is what the US doing to us perfectly legal? The Bopp lawsuit might prove otherwise. The barriers to renouncing US citizenship that the US created could very well be unconstitutional too. Taxing us may be legal, but putting excessive impediments between us and renouncing and denying us due process isn’t. We’ll never know until they’re challenged though. The point to be made is that under current conditions, many people cannot comply or renounce! BC Doc’s statement would make this very clear. This would also create paradoxical situation for the State Department – should he be denied it would validate his claims that the US government has placed him under duress. Should they allow it, they would be acknowledging the validity of the statement.
Yes, the don’t ask don’t tell aspect has always bothered me too, but as some people are saying, when you’re at that point you just want out – without any unnecessary complications.
@Polly If a robber pulls a gun on me and says, “Money or your life” I’d hand over my wallet. In this case, the IRS is holding the weapon and they’re saying “Give me your money or your passport.” The State Department isn’t holding the gun– they’re the bag man collecting the passports.
The State Department knows what’s driving the record number of renunciations. When they ask folks to hold up their hand and swear that the renunciation is intentional and voluntary, the least they could do is give us a wink-wink and a nudge.
@Calgary I’m a refusenik. I refuse to pay taxes to a place I haven’t lived in over two decades and receive no benefit from. I refuse to pay taxes to a place that will spend the money on arms, the military, and building a police state. I refuse to pay my hard earned (in Canada) money to compliance people. I refuse to pay $2,350US to the US government to ask for permission to leave. I refuse to waste another day of my life and spend several hundred dollars to fly to a consulate which is several hundred kilometers from where I live.
@usxcanada Exactly– The State Department requires that the renunciation must be voluntary, but knows that the majority of people coming into the consulates are swearing their oaths under duress (fear of IRS, compliance cost, banking and employment discrimination, etc). If a person came into the consulate insisting on renouncing, but also stated that the US government left them with no other choice due to CBT, FATCA, compliance costs, etc., what could they/would they do?
@Maz57
Someone once corrected me when I said that the US considers everything foreign as bad by saying that the US considers everything foreign to be theirs. Which is closer to the truth?
@maz57 says
“Once a person has finally realized the only way to stop the punishment is taking the drastic step of ditching their US citizenship its not likely they would risk jeopardizing the process. Upon reaching that point an individual just wants to escape from the merry go round, not change it.”
I believe Professor Christians in her recent interview referred to renunciation of USC as the “nuclear option” (please feel free to correct me if I’m misquoting). Using logic and the letter of the law against the people implementing it might not be a bad thing.
“What the US is doing to expats is all perfectly legal under US law.”
As an undocumented relinquisher, I’ve been forced to give up my “right of return” to my place of birth. The US signed on to the UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights. By forcing so many of us out the door, they are in violation of this agreement.
@George Like you, when necessary to travel to the US, I will continue to do so using my Canadian passport. If challenged on citizenship by the US border guards, I intend to stand my ground and insist that I am Canadian only.
Thank you for the responses everyone!
@Bubblebustin. Both are true. They hate everything foreign but as the most powerful nation in the world they reserve the right to take anything they want when and if it suits them.
BC_Doc,
I wish I had been a refusenik for myself.
I am a refusenik on behalf of my Canadian-born son.
The EXCEPTIONAL U.S. Absurdity of
1)*NOT BEING ABLE TO GET A U.S. PASSPORT IF ONE BORN ABROAD DOES NOT HAVE A SSN*,
2) *NOT BEING ABLE TO GET A U.S. SOCIAL SSN as USCs without a Social Security Number (and a Passport) Cannot Travel to the U.S.* and
3) *NOT BEING ABLE TO RENOUNCE A U.S. CITIZENSHIP(acquired by birth abroad to U.S. Parent(s) (Unmeaningful & Totally without Consent) U.S. CITIZENSHIP BECAUSE OF *LACK OF REQUISITE MENTAL CAPACITY and a Parent, a Guardian or a Trustee unable to act on such a person’s behalf even with a Court Order* –
with THE ONLY REASON ONE WOULD GET A U.S. PASSPORT OR U.S. SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER, THE ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO RENOUNCE (which cannot be done because of *lack of requisite mental capacity*) REQUIREMENT
with further requirement to BACKFILE IRS TAX and REPORTING (FINCEN114) FORMS in order to certify compliance on IRS FORM 8854
to AVOID BEING DEEMED a U.S. *COVERED EXPATRIATE*
Thanks for posing questions of common sense, BC_Doc!
@BC_Doc. We are kindred spirits as I’m another one of those undocumented relinquishers. In recent years what Allison Christian called the “nuclear option” has been downgraded to what is now commonplace conventional warfare, LOL. I, too, refuse to play their compliance/renunciation/Form 8854/fly around the country trying to get an appointment/pay the outrageous fee game. But I like your idea and I hope that sooner or later someone is daring enough to give it a go.
The US may be a signatory to the Declaration of Universal Human Rights, but like many other agreements the US signs, they don’t have a problem violating the terms if it suits them. They are, after all, exceptional, right?
Another gem from Hodgen law. what to be sure about before renouncing. Specifically avoid being a covered expatriate
http://hodgen.com/last-minute-gut-check-before-expatriation/
@BCdoc
And instead of a winkwinknudgenudge we get increasingly vindictive, punitive and confiscatory new laws passed almost every month by congress.
@Polly True– the moat seems to be getting wider and wider and the walls higher and higher with time. Harder to get out, get back in, or choose to stay out of Fortress USA.
@maz57 I suspect when historians start looking at his period of State Department history, the US will be pilloried over its unjust treatment of expats. Record numbers of ex-pats “officially” renouncing and relinquishing under duress, with the official numbers fudged. And untold greater numbers unofficially renouncing and relinquishing like you and I by simply walking away from the Plantation and keeping our heads down.
@Calgary I love your post above on “US Exceptional Absurdity.” This is all truly crazy. To renounce Canadian citizenship one sends in a four page form and a cheque for $100– but there is no reason to renounce Canadian citizenship. To renounce US citizenship, one jumps down the rabbit hole with Alice for a journey to places where logic is turned upside down.
@BC_Doc, the People of Canada welcomed you to Canada even though you were then a foreigner. You were educated in Canada, trained in Canada, the People of Canada invested in you. You are recipricating with your absolute loyalty to the Nation of Canada which you have done by becoming one of them and dedicating your work to whom are now your Countrymen.
You have relinquished your USC and have made the personal decision of not requsting a foreign document based on foreign law to prove a negative.
@Calgary, I ask because we as a collective are useful in thinking things through and I remain convinced that when your sons situation is settled all young persons will benefit.
Lets assume that you are not the guardian for your son and lets further assume that you are an un-cooperative parent.
Your son was not registered as a USC and I believe that not registering a child is a powerful statement of some sort.
Your son does not have a SSN nor a US passport.
Again based on the above hypothiticals…if your sons new guardian decided it was in his best interest to get a US Passport, would your son even be able to get a US Passport without your co-operation in asserting certain facts such as residency?
George,
I am both not the guardian for my son — as that is too restrictive for him — and an un-cooperative parent.
I am though his trustee for financial matters (http://humanservices.alberta.ca/guardianship-trusteeship/financial-matters.html) and we use co-decision making (http://humanservices.alberta.ca/guardianship-trusteeship/guardianship-how-it-works.html).
I have presented a summary of my son’s situation to the Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee, Disabiity Services Division, Alberta Human Services, though not with any anticipation that they would or could be of any help (I wanted them to be aware of the situation that awaits some Albertans).
You’re right — he was never registered as a US Birth Abroad nor has there ever been any application for a SSN or a US passport for him. Should the Office of the Public Guardian and Trustee one day act on behalf of my son and think it in his best interest to go through all the hoops to get him into compliance with US tax and reporting, YES, they would have a hard time making any case regarding residency. They do, though, have the US law that says children born abroad to two US parents (and one in many cases) acquire US citizenship (from their first breath as I’ve been reminded by professionals).