Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
woofy,
Again I will say as I did back then:
I am frowning now at the thought that you may have lost your CLN. I am so sorry to hear that. I don’t think anyone here has reported the process in having to replace one. Heck, they’d likely want to replace one at the going rate. I don’t have an answer because I haven’t provided my own CLN to my banks yet. I hope someone else can give you an answer and I hope it is that they will accept a scanned copy of the original — or it may depend on the particular bank, no rhyme nor reason. They would make a copy anyway. Keep searching — it must be somewhere.
Or, as Duality comments: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/12/03/linking-of-passport-to-taxation-confirms-taxation-based-citizenship-undermining-cookvtait/comment-page-4/#comment-6924590.
I would think that a certified copy would suffice? In AU, this can be done at the courthouse. Maybe a notary can certify/stamp that the copy is as the original, something like that? You can sure tell that no real thought was ever put into all of the aftermath of FATCA– good grief…
@woofy, different country I know, but both my banks here in Switzerland were perfectly happy with an ordinary uncertified copy of my CLN. UBS knew I was getting a CLN because they sent me the W-9 forms a few days after I’d done my renunciation and I then told them this, but PostFinance didn’t know when they sent me the same forms later in the year – both were happy for me to just send a photocopy to them.
Ask your bank/s first is the best step I think. If they’re happy with uncertified then just send them the copies. If they need certified or originals, take it from there.
@woofy
I distinctly remember someone here at IBS reporting about getting an official copy of their CLN from the DOS. I think they said it cost around $50. No chance to find the original post, however, but perhaps you can find something on a USA / DOS website?
Here’s a good site which speaks to this issue:
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2015/06/15/3263/
Cheers
I am renouncing my US nationality this week (Friday in fact). I need to be in the US at the very end of February for four days for charitable purposes ONLY, (i.e., as a visitor – in no way living or working there – which I have NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER OF EVER DOING AGAIN). I hold a Canadian passport. I am hoping that I shall have received my CLN prior to that point – I had read that there was a four to six week turn around which would put me in the appropriate time frame – but I assume that – even if I haven’t – I could still travel AS A VISITOR ONLY to the USA on my Canadian passport. I’m just checking to see if you feel I am correct in that assumption. Bless you AS EVER for your kind advice. Bless you for ALL.
@Meunier
I highly doubt you’ll have any problems traveling to the USA on a Canadian passport. I also highly doubt that you’ll get your CLN within 4-6 weeks. If the border thugs ask about your US citizenship, you can tell them you’ve renounced if you wish. If you choose not to, they’ll probably tell you you need to travel on your US passport in the future. Either way it won’t make much of a difference.
Bless you for this @notamused. Can I just ask – based on your experience – whether the ‘border thugs’ as you put it will know – simply by virtue of scanning my Canadian passport – that I will have – in fact – renounced my USA citizenship on 11th December? (I ask this only so that I can be best prepared at the end of February.) Thanks too for notification that I should expect to wait longer for my CLN. Cheers, Meunier
Yeah, did my paperwork in May & no word as yet…Sounds like CA is putting the halt on DOS no matter where you are when you relinquish/renounce. It all goes through the same confused funnel at the other end.
smh
@Meunier
I’m afraid I can’t say whether they will know whether you’ve renounced or not by scanning your passport. I’m German, not Canadian and have no personal experience with crossing the Canadian/US border. Based on what others have reported, however, it shouldn’t make a difference either way. I’ve never heard of anyone being denied entry.
@Meunier, hopefully you’ll be in the system as having renounced even if you haven’t received your CLN yet. However, you will get a receipt for the fee that you’ll have to pay ($2,350) which states on it that it’s for renunciation so take that with you to show at the border if you need to. My receipt from the US embassy here in Switzerland states clearly “Renunciation of USC”.
Good Morning all,
Just thought I would provide an update on the timing for renouncing at Calgary. I just finsihed talking to a co-worker of mine and she was telling me that she has a date set for her renunciation. It was in June 2016. I believe she said the 9th. So we are looking at six months out to do it now. That just seems crazy to me.
In other news, I have been waiting for 15 months now and still no sniff of my CLN.
Cheers,
Rocky
Thanks again to all who have answered my query. I would imagine because I was actually BORN in Canada I would be alright. I would imagine if you had a birth place in the USA on a Canadian (or indeed any other short of an American) passport it would raise issues … but surely a Canadian passport with a Canadian birthplace should be alright for US boarder patrol, shouldn’t it? It’s only that I’ll just have the receipt for my $2,350 … with notation … to prove that I am a renounced American national … but I’m only going for four days!… and I just wondered if anyone had found that the US border staff (I’ll be landing at Newark, NJ) kept that close a record. I would imagine that they may well have not even got to my file at that time at the State Department what with Christmas, a back log and all. I just wondered if when they scan the Canadina passport at the NJ customs boarder if it would trigger something that would say: ALERT – THIS IS IN REALITY AN ‘AMERICAN CITZEN’.
@Meunier, no they can’t. With a Canadian passport with no US indica I doubt the question will even come up.
@Meunier,
I am in the same boat as you. I was born in Canada and I have no US indication on my Canadian passport. I renounced in Sept 2014 and I have been back down to the States at least 2 times since then and they have never asked or questioned me about it at all. I would say that you are safe.
Cheers,
Rocky
Krackerjack,
Thanks for the info on Calgary’s current booking time. Seems crazy to me too, especially because it’s such an important thing for a person and other countries can do expatrations conveniently and expeditiously.
Re your CLN not arriving yet. 15 months is really long, even for the North American Division of DoS/ACS (the department that handles CLNs.)
You might want to follow up with DoS/ACS in Washington. Some Brockers have phoned their ACS Division Chief and got fast action — as long as the CLN was taking a long time [by DoS’ standards, which are pretty slow to begin with, but yours seems to fit the bill]. It seems that sometimes a file gets lost in the cracks and lurks there until someone brings it to their attention.
The Division Chief for Western Hemisphere is Geoffrey Martineau,
202-285-6289202-485-6289. Unfortunately, we don’t have e-mail addresses. The link to the DoS Telephone Directory (which also gives snail-mail addresses) is at http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/112065.pdf The ACS division office chiefs are on page OD-17 of the current directory.This telephone directory can also be accessed on the State Dept Forms, Procedure Manuals and Contact Info page, which is accessible under “Important Info” on the sidebar.
Oh, bless you for that, Rocky. I cannot thank you enough. Your evidence makes me feel so very much more secure.
Bless you for ALL.
@notamused: Thanks for that! I think for now I will just try to get by with my scanned copy – it’s pretty good. If the requesting bank doesn’t like it I’ll take my account to one that does. I really dislike the idea of having to go back and deal with the peeps at the embassy again given all the trauma I had to go through just to get the CLN in the first place – it was realy rediculous.. And who kmows – maybe they now have a ridiculously high fee to make the copy too.
@ Pacifica,
This does not surprise me in the least. I don’t expect government to do anything expeditiously or efficiently. That is not the nature of that beast. I will have to follow up with them, I mean I did pay $450.00 for the privildedge of not being American anymore. Oh well.
Cheers,
Rocky
Hi all,
Here’s a question I’d like to put out there.
What do some of the brighter bulbs here at Brock think would happen if someone went into an embassy or consulate to renounce/relinquish and when asked the reason for renouncing/relinquishing said they were 1) incapable of conforming with IRS and FBAR filing requirements (requirements too complex), 2) unable to afford the cost of the requirements, both direct (additional layer of taxes) and indirect (accounting and legal costs), 3) forced to renounce due to local job and banking discrimination as a result of FATCA? For the sake of discussion, say they even wrote this down in a statement to go with their file.
I imagine the local consular officer might try to refuse to approve the renunciation or relinquishment claiming the action wasn’t voluntary. What do folks suppose would happen if the individual insisted the file be sent to DC?
To me, much of what’s happening at the consulates falls under “Don’t ask/Don’t tell” practices– “we know what’s driving you to pay $2350 to burn the blue book and get a CLN, but we’re going to pretend it’s not that we’re taxing your USC/birthright away from you.”
I am off to work shortly so I won’t be following up on this until later. I am curious though to read some thoughts on a hypothetical question
Cheers,
BC Doc
PS Thanks for your comment from a couple of days ago, George. Good to see you back here posting! Thank you for the great perspective and insightful comments you offer here.
@BCDoc
I dunno- but I think one of the most important things is that the renunciation was purely voluntary.
So saying that one was “forced” one way or the other is probably not so wise.
Yes, good to see you around here again, George, and thank you Calgary411 for asking about George’s whereabouts on my behalf.
BC_Doc,
It is reality that there will be many who will be incapable of conforming with back and ongoing compliance for US tax and reporting returns because of the sheer complexity. MANY / even MOST!!!!! Many of those same people will, as well, be unable to afford the fees for accounting and tax law professionals needed to even begin this or even know where to turn for help. I don’t see any low-income US tax clinics having been set up to help these people and such services are no longer available at US Consulates.
It further begs the question why any of us would have to attempt the complexity of compliance or pay the steep fees of US tax and accounting professionals for ongoing assistance, less we bring upon ourselves some of the draconian penalties threatened. The only ones who will have to do that, I guess, are those who want to remain US citizens outside the walls being built around the US.
Let’s see — we don’t have enough will to gather together for any mass protests; we don’t enough with the will and means to fund our Canadian litigation obligations.
Perhaps we could have enough angry enough to go into US Consulates around the world to say *Enough — I have to renounce because I cannot afford the compliance costs to either remain a US citizen or the cost to bring compliance up to date so I can renounce. I have though scrimped and saved from grocery and rent money to save enough to give you US$2,350 for, I hope, my freedom. Or, is there a debtor’s prison I can be thrown into because I cannot afford the costs of your requirements — to say nothing of the complexity and being able to correctly comply without help?
Really, what are some people able or supposed to do?
Polly,
Hopefully, forced would mean FORCED BY ANOTHER PERSON rather than the circumstances that person finds himself or herself under — the person having come to that logical conclusion without any force or influence from anyone else.
Going into a US Consulate saying they cannot comply because of the complexity and / or cost still would not work for someone without *requisite mental capacity*. That somehow needs to change to have someone able to say the same on such a person’s behalf!
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120538.pdf
7 FAM 1293 MENTAL COMPETENCY (CT:CON-407; 06-29-2012)
a. Because loss of U.S. nationality occurs only when a would-be renunciant or person signing a statement of voluntary relinquishment has the legal capacity to form the specific intent necessary to lose U.S. nationality, cases involving persons with established or possible mental incapacity require careful review. This includes mental disability, mental illness, developmental impairment, Alzheimer’s disease, and similar conditions. It may also include cases of substance abuse.
b. A formal finding of mental incompetency by a court of competent jurisdiction, whether in the United States or abroad, precludes a finding that an individual has the requisite intent.
c. The requisite intent may also be found lacking if there is evidence that due to mental incapacity or impairment the individual does not understand the seriousness of renunciation, including its irrevocable nature and the major consequences that flow from it.
d. Voluntariness may also be an issue with persons who suffer from mental incapacity or impairment, as such individuals may be especially susceptible to the influence of others.
e. Parents, guardians and trustees cannot renounce or relinquish the U.S. nationality of a citizen lacking full mental capacity: A guardian or trustee cannot renounce on behalf of the incompetent individual because renunciation of one’s citizenship is regarded, like marriage or voting, as a personal elective right that cannot be exercised by another. Should a situation arise of the evident compelling need for an incapacitated person to relinquish citizenship, you are asked to consult CA/OCS/L for guidance.
f. Importance of reporting consular observations and relevant facts: An individual who behaves irrationally, belligerently or otherwise unusually may give you reason to question whether he or she has the mental capacity to formulate the intent required to lose U.S. nationality and/or whether he or she is subject to undue influence. You should document all the person’s actions and behavior and give your impression of his or her ability to understand the nature and consequences of renunciation. You also should observe and document the behavior of any individual who appears to be attempting to influence the individual to renounce. g. While you are not making a clinical diagnosis, your description of the individual’s demeanor, behavior, statements, and your assessment of the person’s mental and emotional state are very important in making a determination whether the person is capable of formulating the intent to lose U.S. nationality and/or is acting voluntarily. This assessment must be sent to the Department (CA/OCS/ACS) as part of your consular officer opinion. h. Accepting the renunciation or relinquishment: You may accept the renunciation or voluntary relinquishment of troubled citizens who insist on exercising their right to renounce. Acceptance does not constitute approval which, by statute (INA 358; 8 U.S.C. 1501) can only occur in the Department. If the Department concludes that the facts rebut the presumption of voluntariness, the Department may decline to approve the Certificate of Loss of Nationality. Permitting such a person to attempt to exercise his or her right to renounce may alleviate tension or conflict on the scene, while reporting the circumstances surrounding the act and the person’s demeanor will enable the Department to protect the citizenship of such an individual incapable of forming the requisite intent and voluntariness. The person seeking or claiming loss of citizenship has the burden of establishing knowing intent based on a preponderance of the evidence. Involuntariness may also be established by a preponderance of the evidence.
BC Doc –
Good question, well put. Expressed or not, it seems apparent that the DURESS factor has to account for the sharp upward trend line in ditch-US-personhood over the past decade.
A single mad-dog stick-with-it out-in-public shameless individual (not me, on this particular issue) who tosses your implement into Dept of State gears could get to enjoy the racket of metal seriously trashing itself. (Emphasize out-in-public. Media magician needed. Reincarnate Abbie Hoffman?)
In the longer run, it seems conceivable that the prevailing don’t-ask-don’t-tell subtext to the typical renunciation “contract” could swing a door open to judicial invalidation à la Afroyim v. Rusk.