Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Bubblebustin,
I applied in November 2014 and received it in October 2015. The legislation passed in 2014 under Bill C-24 made people born before 1947 (lost Canadians) Canadian citizens but with an effective date of 01/01/1947 instead of their actual birth date because this date was the effective date of the citizenship act passed in 1946. This age group was not included under Bill C-37 which covered people born after 01/01/1947.
@ Medea Fleecestealer – but the next half of the exemption phrase is that such a “dual citizen at the time of his/her birth” must be living in that other country to claim the exemption against possible exit tax. If not living in England, does such a past-citizenship “count” in this case?
@ Meunier – OK, so you (like so many others, made a mistake of becoming a US citizen. It is not a sin, just one of those things you now wish you had not done (haven’t we all had such situations???).
You say you have not been in the US for 8 years, and not for 7 years before that. That is 15 years, that is pre-9/11 when all the tracking of individuals was sent into high action. It is unlikely that they need serious counting of days prior to Y2K, just generalities are probably acceptable. Did you work in the US for X number of years, or partial years? Did you go to school there? Did you own a home there, maybe a winter home that you visited for a certain length of time each year? Do the best you can. The US doesn’t have exact records for the last 60 years, why should you? It would be inhuman to expect precise regurgitation of such information over 60 years (but maybe the US is moving in that direction in order to “gotcha” folks – or am I just a conspiracy theorist……..? LOL)
@AF
I can see how that would complicate things for you concerning the exit tax. I haven’t come across anyone else being in the same situation. Most folks I’ve me don’t meet the threshold to have to pay the exit tax.
That’s most folks I’ve “met”…
@LM, no it says:
“Certain dual-citizens.
You may qualify for the exception described above if you meet both of the following requirements.You became at birth a U.S. citizen and a citizen of another country and you continue to be a citizen of, and are taxed as a resident of, that other country.
You were a resident of the United States for not more than 10 years during the 15-tax-year period ending with the tax year during which the expatriation occurred. For the purpose of determining U.S. residency, use the substantial presence test described in chapter 1 of Pub. 519.”
You don’t necessarily have to be living in the other country, you just have to be considered a resident and be taxed by them. I have not lived in the UK for over 16 years now, but I do still fill in a UK tax return as I own a property and have a dormant business there. Even though the latter years have been zero returns it’s a legal requirement for limited company directors to file a UK self assesment return.
Bubblebustin;
One nice home and a good pension will put you over the threshold, as the pensions are on a net present value of all future payments.
If you meet one of those pre-1947 with this question, please post it.
@AF
John Richardson is writing a series of blog posts about the exit tax. Perhaps you could get more information there. I believe he’s also a dual at birth, but born after 1947. He may be intrigued by your question:
http://www.citizenshipsolutions.ca/2015/04/01/renouncing-us-citizenship-how-the-s-877a-exit-tax-may-apply-to-your-canadian-assets-5-parts/
Bless you all for your kind responses. You have made me feel so much better.
One other thing – although I think I know the answer. There’s no question but that I have (the originals) of my British, my Canadian and, yes, my American passport. I also have the original of my Canadian birth certificate. They asked me to bring my Certificate of Nationality (US) … which for quite some time … I have lost … i.e., lost the original. Blessedly I have a copy …. otherwise I would not have been able to fill out the form. I worried about his … but then I spoke to two different lawyers and they told me the original wasn’t necessary as long as I had the passport. I just wondered if that towed with you own experience.
I cannot thank you enough for your kind advice. IT MAKES A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE … IN A WORLD THAT ONLY RECENTLY HAS SEEMED TO QUAKE UNDER MY VERY FEET.
Bless you for ALL.
AF. Just check the yes box to question 3 and 4 in Part IV section A and be done with it.
Bubblebustin,
Thanks for the info. I sent him an email. See what happens.
You’re welcome, AF. Please let us know of any developments. Good luck.
@Meunier
When I renounced (London, 2012), at my lawyer’s insistence, I had looked through all my old passports, desk diaries, calendars etc etc, back to the Year Dot. this enabled me to generate a detailed list of precise dates in and out of the US over a nearly 60-year period.
The US Embassy officials who processed me looked with confusion at all of this painstakingly accumulated detail. They then selected to record only 2 periods of time in the USA (one from my childhood plus a 3-year stint during the 1980s).
Don’t worry about this too much!
Just be sure any stamps in your passport correspond to the dates you give on the form. Even if it’s a short trip, a discrepancy seems to upset them.
You good people have been so; SO VERY kind … I CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH. This is a WONDERFUL resource.
Two questions …. I would be grateful if you could help me in advance of my appointment in a Eastern European US consulate where I’m going to renounce my USA citizenship … .
(i) I know I was in California from mid-January to late February 2008 as I was doing a project for the Charity I’m in charge of. I know I’m not going mad because there was an article in the LA Times about it – and I have photos. FOR THE LIFE OF ME I CAN’T FIND THE ENTRY STAMP FROM THE USA IN MY PASSPORT. I was there for just under a week in December 2007 in preparation for such – THAT I CAN FIND … but nothing in January 2008 – and that was the LAST time I was in the USA. What should I do? Should I list it WITH NO STAMP … or should I just forget about it? Grateful for your kind advice – As I say I know it was there. Do these guys at the State Department ACTUALLY GO THROUGH YOUR PASSPORT????? Do they check their immigration records???
(II) I had mentioned this before but I just wanted to ask again — because I’m a self-respecting paranoid creature. I have lost the original of my Certificate of Nationality. I’ve searched high and low but I can’t find it … it must have got lost in moves …. though I do have a copy of the original otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to fill out the form. I have spoken to two lawyers (in London, UK) who tell me that I don’t need it – as long as I have my USA passport – which I do. Can you just confirm this for me through your experience? It seems the step by step guide in ‘renunciation.com’ also bears witness to this … It is just – as I say – that I’m paranoid.
AGAIN, I CANNOT THANK YOU ENOUGH …. BLESS YOU FOR ALL.
Meunier. Where do they ask details for when was the last time you were in the US?
Take your passport and the copy of your certificate with you. There isn’t any thing else you could do since you lost the original.
This is NOT a criminal trial. You have every right to renounce. Bonne chance.
Meunier: In your Nov 25 post you said “It asks for ALL the dates you have been in the US.”
I can’t figure where that question is asked. It’s not on any of the standard forms required for renunciation. It wouldn’t make a difference in any case- you have the right to renounce and they don’t have the right to turn you down unless they believe you are being coerced.
P.S. Why renounce-you were born in Canada
You are entirely right … It asks for all the dates you have been out of the country, i.e., USA …. which certainly has been the majority of the last 20 years when I have been in the UK. I haven’t been in the USA AT ALL, for example, since February of 2008.
Why renounce when I am a Canadian? Well, I’m a Canadian who lives in London and British banks (i.e., those registered in the UK itself) have now determined that it is too great a risk to deal with anyone remotely connected with the USA. The first question asked on any British registered bank’s form is NOW ‘Are you responsible for paying taxes in any country other than the UK?’ Americans – by their terminology – are now deemed by them to be ‘non viable’. Why? Well, I simply want to be VIABLE in the country in which I have lived longer than any other … and in which I own my home.
I only came to realise the enormity of this entire mess as I am head of small arts charity and I had to get advice to fill out the 28 pages of FATCA forms and the additional 35 pages requesting ‘additional’ information. Alarm were suddenly triggered in my head. Immediately I called two American ex-pat organisations in London. A woman answering the phone at one – a group called ‘Focus’ – said that she had just got off the line with a British national who was despairing because his mortgage had been foreclosed because the deed to his property was co-signed by his wife and she was American born. ‘NON VIABLE’. may well have been rudely stamped across those files.
People in London are losing promotions; children of American parents are losing their college funding; the world is changing for US ex-pats in London and certainly in the rest of the UK. Just to become compliant the British banks now say that it is costing EVERY British household £500 and the vast majority of those may well never even visit the USA in their lifetimes.
When I spoke to one Eastern European American consul trying to get a renouncement appointment she stopped me and said: ‘You don’t need to say anymore. It’s EVERYWHERE.’
Why do I – a Canadian – want to renounce?
Well, as far as I’m concenred, It really is not a matter of desire or choice as much as it is an absolute necessity.
At 60, I’m sorry but one really cannot ‘start over’.
One thing I will say – in all the ex-pat publications in the UK the ONLY people who have written about this matter are people with a vested interests, i.e., lawyers or accountants. I have said once I get my CLN I am going write an article myself. Two have said they will publish it. For my sins I am at least just one of that vast multitude (hundreds of thousands strong in London alone) who has nothing to gain – but EVERYTHING to loose – and are – in terms of a meaningful voice – ENTIRELY stateless in the American Congress and Senate.
Bless all for their support and kind understanding.
Bless you for your kind understanding.
Bank- “Are you responsible for paying taxes in any country other than the UK?”
Meunier “No” Simple n’est-ce pas?
But would that not be a lie if you hold an American or indeed an Eritrean passport? I believe it would be … It is, after all, on your head. You have to sign saying all the information is correct.
All UK banks are now responsible for reporting any person who IS an American or who is ‘suspected of being an American@ to HMRC .. and HMRC – bless them – by agreement – must report such to the IRS.
I, myself, couldn’t afford to chance that ‘Non’ … It could very well be worth more than my life I fear.
Or do you think I’m just too easily intimidated.
My home and all – indeed my sleep/health – would be in that balance.
@Meunier
“At 60, I`m sorry, but one really cannot start over”
AMEN.
I want to spend my elder years in peace and quiet.
Meunier, many of us renounced for exactly the same reason — peace of mind. I had become compliant to the best of my ability before I decided to renounce but that didn’t relieve the anxiety the next time the filing deadlines rolled around. One never knows if it’s good enough really. The last straw was realizing that if I became unable to manage it all myself, as my mother did in her last decade, I would be passing all the paperwork and hassles over to my children. And the paperwork would be a whole lot worse than what I had to manage for her.
Meunier. “Are you responsible for paying taxes in any other country?”
I can imagine a scenario whereby there would be no taxes owing and the honest answer could be a simple “no”
I can also imagine a scenario where a con artist phones up a little old lady and demands her banking information in order to empty her bank account. Is it a lie to give the wrong information.?
@Duke of Devon … Yes, Your Grace, but it is, I fear, a matter of ‘responsibility’ and that responsibility remains – and will ALWAYS remain – with ME, YOU – and anyone else who must SIGN (i.e., attest to) a document stating that what you say is ENTIRELY TRUE. It is the whole that here is the rub methinks. In the court of law I fear – in many instances – the proverbial little old lady would not get her pilfered cash back because she CHOSE – of her own ENTIRE free will – to take the action of emptying her bank account. In the same light you – well, for the purposes of this Board ‘we’ – can – forever more – STILL owe monies to the IRS … and still be deported to the USA … long after you have renounced. Some things are truly eternal – or as forevermore as we will ever be. The Renouncement Oath document makes this perfectly clear. Today it seems there is no wipe of any slate that can be ENTIRELY clean. That is the other side of our street. Even peace of mind is what my mother used to term a ‘calculated risk’.
Does anyone know how to get a duplicate replacement for a lost CLN? Will the banks just take a scanned copy of the original or do they really wantg the original itself?