Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Well my wife went to the Toronto consulate in April to relinquish and received her CLN Nov 16. So that’s that with these arogant people. Now we have to find a FI that is not involved with this scam. Oh, and it’s not that great being a second class Canadian. Being Canadian just dosn’t mean that much anymore.
As Allison Christians said, rather than making it harder to leave they should be making it easier to stay. She also thinks that the renunciation fee can be defeated in court.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/11/20/allison-christian-interview-on-tax-notes/
I hope Allison Christians is right about the renunciation fee being defeated in court. It would be quite amusing if those of us who renounced/relinquished all applied for a refund if and when this occurs!
@EC
Congratulations EC. When I got mine I felt a sense of sadness but also of relief. Nice to be free.
With interest, PatCanadian!
Re: Defeating the $2350 renunciation fee in a court challenge.
While such a court challenge might have a reasonable chance of success, I think the likelihood of it actually happening is just about zero. Once a person has made the decision to renounce their US citizenship it is not likely they would choose to embroil themselves in an expensive legal battle that could take years. Homelanders certainly aren’t going to take on that battle; its not their problem.
Most will choose to pay the US$2350 under protest and just get it over with, ridding themselves of the US scourge once and for all. Once rid of US citizenship there is no further interest or need in pursuing a legal challenge in what is now, to them, a foreign country. Its far more likely they will simply wish to get on with their lives, much like turning the page after a nasty divorce.
What is far more likely is that there will be more and more “undocumented” US emigrants, i.e. people who not only refuse to be US citizens but also refuse to pay (or can’t afford) the outrageous fee for a CLN. Most of the people I know personally fall into that category, whether they have a US birthplace or not. When the US inevitably raises the fee even higher, even fewer will choose to pay.
In the end the US will wind up with very large numbers of undocumented immigrants AND emigrants. The US has lost control of its borders; they literally don’t know whether they are coming or going.
@Claudia I ran into a similar problem last fall with the Toronto consulate. They weren’t even accepting the forms and said when they did start booking again the next appointments would be for June July and August. I made a point of looking very prepared and asking for the earliest possible appointment. Could just be coincidence but when I did get an appointment it was for March.If you have the flexibility to go on short notice you might ask if you can be on their cancellation list.
@RLee
Thanks, that’s a great suggestion! In fact, I just took your advice. I got an auto-reply response to my email, but hopefully someone will see my request.
@ maz57
“What is far more likely is that there will be more and more “undocumented” US emigrants, i.e. people who not only refuse to be US citizens but also refuse to pay (or can’t afford) the outrageous fee for a CLN.”
i think you have hit the nail on the head with this comment.
over the last couple of months i have spoken to 10 or so people (who have the american citizen curse) who have gone this route, they have set them selves up with “local client base” credit unions and have no reason to ever cross the border again.
america has lost track of almost 8 million citizens…..how the hell are they going to find all of them unless they raise their hand and say here i am.
i left there in 1966 and became a CANADIAN citizen in 1980. i refuse to play by amerika’s rules. i expect the canadian gov’t to respenct the statement “a canadian is a canadian is a canadian”
My brother enjoys researching the family history and has turned up some interesting facts. Today is Repudiation Day! Two Hundred and fifty years ago on Nov. 23 1765, 12 judges in Maryland overturned the hated Stamp Act that the British Parliament had imposed on the colonies as a tax on all paper documents and publications. Marylanders celebrated the ruling by conducting a mock execution and funeral for the law, and burning down the tax collector’s house. After the Revolution, Maryland declared Nov. 23 a holiday and a plaque was installed in the courthouse with the names of the 12 judges, by then known as “The 12 Immortal Justices.”
One of the justices was my first cousin, 7X removed. In his honour I shall donate to the anti-FATCA lawsuit today.
One of the exceptions to incurring the US expatriation exit tax is the following language:
“the taxpayer was a dual citizen of the United States and foreign country at birth, continues to be a citizen of that foreign country and is taxed by that country as a resident”
As a Canadian citizen by descent but born before 1947 citizenship act was enacted, concerned about meeting citizenship at birth test. Wondering if anyone else has encountered this issue in expatriating and the outcome?
@AF
How does being born before 1947 make a difference under the 2009 changes to Canada’s Citizenship Act?
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp
@AF And you do realise that you still need to fill in a 8854 form for that exception to be applicable.
“Exception for dual-citizens and certain minors.
Dual-citizens and certain minors (defined next) will not be treated as covered expatriates (and therefore will not be subject to the expatriation tax) solely because one or both of the statements in paragraph (1) or (2) above (under Who Must File) applies. However, these individuals will still be treated as covered expatriates unless they file Form 8854 and certify that they have complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of expatriation as required in paragraph (3) above (under Who Must File).”
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
According to the Canadian government, there were no Canadian citizens pre-1947 instead only British subjects. Thus, everyone born pre-1947 technically was not a citizen at their birth rather a Canadian by descent and officially a Canadian citizen with commencement of the Citizenship Act of January 1, 1947.
Thus my question, the US rules require that “the taxpayer was a dual citizen of the United States and foreign country at birth” to avoid the exit tax (agreed this is only part of the exit tax exemption test). Therefore my comment, any Canadian born pre-1947 can or cannot meet this test because technically not a citizen at their birth. Has anyone encountered this issue?
@AF, but doesn’t that simply make you a dual British/US citizen instead? The same rule would apply. Similar for me, born in the US of British parents so technically I was a dual from birth by British descent.
Did Canada not make everyone in that situation Canadian from birth retroactively? My mother was born in England to a Canadian soldier and a British war bride, coming to Canada as an infant. Some law along the way made her Canadian from birth.
The US does the retroactive law change dance all the time. I belueve they accept it from Canada as well.
I forgot to add she was bore before 1947.
The point is irrelevant. canadian citizenship was created in 1910 and the term canadian national was created in 1921 for those British subjects who were canadian citizens and their children who hadn’t yet arrived.
Anyone who was Canadian pre 1947 has nothing to fear.
@AF
There are people on this forum (tdott to be specific) who’ve retroactively applied for and received certificates stating their Canadian citizenship was received at birth.
I was born in the US, naturalized as a Canadian in 1996. Changes to Canada’s citizenship laws in 2009 allow you and me to claim Canadian citizenship at birth. I feel confident that although I naturalized as a Canadian, the Canadian government would issue me a document my citizenship was attained “at birth”. My brother never naturalized in Canada, and just this year applied for and received such a document. Would the Canadian government allow him a certificate at birth, and deny me one because I naturized as a Canadian? I doubt it.
For my sins I became an American citizen (because of intimidation by Newt Gingrich’s Contract with America wherein he said that he was going to ‘attach’ assets of law abiding Green Card holders as I was) in 1996. Shortly thereafter I came back to England to live. (I should note I was born in Canada.) Soon it will be impossible for any American citizen to open a British bank account or saving vehicle with government protection. It is becoming impossible for many to survive here as ex-pats.
There is a vast waiting list for renouncing US citizenship at the American Embassy in London. It can be upwards of a year. I now have an appointment in an Embassy in Eastern Europe. My question is this if someone can help me. It asks for ALL the dates you have been in the US. If it said 10 or even 20 years I would have no problem … but I am now 60 years old … and don’t have the documentation to back up exactly all the dates. It will be a guess on my part. Can anyone advise? I really don’t want to be turned down … although – as I understand it – they can’t as long as you show that you are not intending to live or work in the USA in the future. That I’m happy to swear to …. with a passion. I haven’t even passed through the country in the last eight years … and then I hadn’t been there previously for another seven. Surely they will get the picture (or at least one would hope.) They’ll have the money.
Bless you for your kind consideration in advance.
In response to being a British citizen instead, no. Canadians were British subjects but not British citizens. I previously tried that route and was rejected.
While I agree on arguments that Canadian citizenship began well before 1947, the Canadian government disagrees, and one must meet the US tax test I previously mentioned to leave as a non-covered expatriate.
In response to Bubbelbustin, the fact you were first naturalized will not affect your situation as bill C-24 addressed that issue (I think) and your certificate would say from your birth. However, this assumes you were born after 1947. If you were born before 1947, the citizenship certificate would say effective date of 01/01/1947. Which is the date listed on my Canadian certificate although born 2 years before. The Canadian government believes (incorrectly) that it cannot issues Citizenship certificate from birth before the 1947 citizenship act took effect.
Hang in there @Meunier. It takes awhile sometimes for Brockers to dive in with comments. Meanwhile, do any of your banks have any inkling that you have a US connection? Do you have a Canadian passport?
On my husband’s relinquishment questionairre they asked for dates of residence in the USA but there was no requirement to provide proof of those dates. I think that means actually residing, not visiting, so wouldn’t your dates just be the date of acquiring your GC to the date you left to reside in the UK?
BTW, you have NO sin. It’s the US government that has that burden.
@Meunier, don’t worry, I don’t think you’ll need to provide proof. The form is just to give the staff an idea of how close your ties are to the US. along with all the other questions. And as I assume you’re renouncing and not relinquishing the form’s pretty much irrelevant anyway. It’s your right as an American citizenship to renounce if you wish and you have no need to give any reason for doing so nor can it be refused. The State Department’s insistence on using the form is just an annoying, time wasting, push the cost up to these “traitors” delaying tactic. Fill it in as best you can, send it back with the supporting documents they ask for and then wait until your appointment date to do what is the only relevant part – standing in front of the Vice Consul and swearing/affirming that you no longer want to be an American citizen.
@ Meunier,
Re:
Are you referring to the DS-4079? It asks, in Q. 5, “Dates and Countries of Residence Outside the United States Since Birth” on the DS-4079. That just asks dates of residence, not visiting, outside the US and doesn’t require documentation, as Em mentioned.
https://eforms.state.gov/editdocument.aspx?documentid=240
When I filled out the DS-4079, I wasn’t sure of exact dates from long ago. So, I picked a likely date, as close as I could remember, eg “05-01-1969”, and wrote “apprx” next to it in pen (as you couldn’t type anything except a date itself into those lines of the form). No one even mentioned it at the consulate and I got my CLN.
As Medea pointed out, it doesn’t really have any bearing on a renunciation, so I’d just be as accurate as reasonably possible, but not worry about it.
That’s very interesting, AF. I understand that other countries also date theirs from when the certificate was issued (Switzerland, I believe), so what you’re asking would be a concern to them too when establishing another citizenship at birth. I’m curious. When did you apply for your Canadian citizenship certificate?