Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
“………..For those wishing to read a detailed history of US citizenship laws since the adoption of the US Constitution in 1788, and the convening of the First US Congress in 1789, read the late Andy Sundberg’s excellent summary. [ https://americansabroad.org/files/3013/3478/0295/18-04-2012_1318_971.pdf ] ”
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2015/11/01/3886/
@badger
Funny how, in the beginning, the laws/gov’t seemed to be trying to keep people out? Now, with FATCA, seems they’re trying to keep people in by making it ridiculously difficult to live outside it’s borders?
I had the pleasure of going to the US consulate today to pay $50 EACH for notary signatures. (The US will not accept a Canadian lawyer as notary,….pure unmitigated robbery).
While standing in line waiting to enter I met this young fellow, probably in his 30s, there to renounce. He was the only one of his siblings that had been born in the US to Canadian parents and left as an infant.
What I found most astounding was that he was completely and utterly unruffled by the entire mess. He stated that it was a real bitch and expensive to do the back taxes/FBAR and the fee to renounce was rather high but he would then be rid of them. No anger, no complaining, no NOTHING. His affect was completely flat. I asked if he had heard of IBS…nope, the lawsuits….nope, was he interested in joining the fight….nope. When I said he was the first person I had met that wasn’t outraged by this immorality he just shrugged his shoulders and said what can you do, they will never change.
It is quite interesting how those affected can have such differing responses to this problem. It is probably this attitude that makes it so hard to fundraise if there are many out there like him. Just get it over with and move on. (Of course I’ve never met up with this attitude before hanging out with you folks!!!!) Damn lucky we are all not like this or evil would be allowed to prevail, all it takes is for good people to do nothing.
@Charl
A lot of people must feel the way this man does, as you’d think with the number of renunciations there are, we’d be hearing from more. It’s also possible that his parents are covering the cost of freeing him of his birth defect.
For every one like him, there must be dozens ostriching.
@Charl and Bubblebustin
Charl says, “What I found most astounding was that he was completely and utterly unruffled by the entire mess.”
I think there’s hope here. This guy is not just hiding. He’s taken care of the problem from a personal perspective. He renounced and filed. I know a number of people who are really in hiding and not doing anything. Just hoping and praying they will not be noticed.
Of course the next step would be for someone like him to support our effort to not let evil prevail.
When I first found out about FATCA, I was really angry and a bit frozen with fear. Why should I have to file and renounce? Now I am okay about it and feel I can move on. This new sense of freedom gives me the strength to fight the injustice of a US law invading Canada and other countries.
@PatCanadian
“Stoic” might be a good way to describe this young man. He knew what he needed to do in order to be free and he did it. Now contrast that with Gwen and Ginny who have instead decided that what the US wishes to impose upon them doesn’t apply to them. Two very different reactions to what seems to be a similar set of circumstances. Both reject US jurisdiction over them, one by renouncing, the others by what some might call dissent. Both a black-eye for the US government.
@Charl I think an individual’s outrage at renouncing is sometimes relative to what it actually COSTS them to renounce. Had this guy had to hand over thousands or hundreds of thousands, or had it impacted business, family & etc…he might have been more vocal.
We already know that the “name & shame” roll doesn’t include everyone- so you can bet the true renunciation numbers are likely double or even triple. There are many people who never see their name listed- that ought to tell you something in regards to what the US gov’t wants the outside world to believe. “Nothing to see here folks, move along…”, even as the fake numbers continue to climb.
@bubblebustin
“Stoic” might be a good way to describe this young man. He knew what he needed to do in order to be free and he did it.”
Now let’s hope that he and others will wake up and do what they can.
@Jane
I am on the “name and shame list”. I consider it an honor roll. It only cost me the renunciation fee but it actually has made me more vocal.
Its now taking 6 months for an appointment in Calgary. End of October they were booking end of April. I don’t ever remember reading Calgary was that long of a wait compared to other Canadian cities, I guess that just goes to show how many are on the way out.
Eight months now since I renounced in Toronto and still no CLN.
TLRlee, I’m not the only one then(AU).
I am so angry that for this, a leaving of one’s country, there’s no nothing in place. No nothing, no end.
When I contacted the Vancouver office to book an appointment, I got the following reply: “We request your patience until appointments slots are being allocated, at which time you will be contacted in sequence with requests for appointments received by this office. Please be advised that these types of appointments are in high demand and are booked in the order in which they were requested.”
So, no indication of even a rough time frame. Has anyone else applied for an appointment recently? If yes, what consulate and how far into the future was your appointment? I’m especially interested in Vancouver, of course, but it’d be interesting to see if they’re all this overwhelmed. I
My appointment was at the Vancouver office in 2014. It was booked a couple of months in advance. It looks like things have changed and they are more overwhelmed with appointments to renounce/ relinquish.
I would check wait times at another consulate, if you are able to travel. Also, keep trying to contact them at the Vancouver office, maybe every few weeks, to get your appointment sooner than later.
This process may tend to become more expensive and harder to get. The CLN has proved to be the golden ticket for many.
@PatCanadian
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I’d consider going out of town if I can find a consulate that (unlike Vancouver) is actively booking appointments. The problem is that it seems the on the only way to contact the various consulates is via email. Very frustrating.
@Claudia, I think they’re all pretty similar in time, i.e. several months. Hang in there, it will happen. This just shows that despite the hike in fees for both renunciation and now relinquishment the flow of people wanting to be ex-Americans is growing.
@Medea
Thanks for the encouraging words. However, it’s not a good sign that the Vancouver consulate isn’t even booking appointments! My concern is that there will be another huge fee increase and/or additional hoops to jump through.
@Claudia
It is a very frustrating process. Here is info for the US Consulate in Vancouver which is on their website. I don’t know if you can actually make contact with Citizen Services to find out about renunciation/relinquishment appointments over the phone. I’m sure you already have their email. Best to get an appointment ASAP in Vancouver or any other consulate you can get to. Good Luck!
Telephone (General): 604-685-4311
email: VancouverCLN@state.gov.
@PatCanadian
Sorry, perhaps I should have been more clear. I did email the Vancouver consulate using the email given on the website (same email you gave). They sent me links to forms to download and complete, and a different email to send the completed questionnaire and Form DS4079 to. I followed the instructions and that’s when I got the response that the Vancouver consulate isn’t even booking appointments at this time.
The Vancouver consulate — and, to the best of my knowledge, all of the others — only accept relinquishment/renunciation appointment requests via email, so there’s no point in phoning. My only hope is that some of the other US consulates in Canada are still booking appointments. That said, digging through some of the comment threads on other IBS threads, it looks like some (maybe all) are now only accepting local requests; that is to say, there might not even be the option of going to a different consulate.
I have no idea how bad the backlog at the Vancouver consulate is, but it must be considerable. In fact, it could well be that all the appointment slots for 2016 are already spoken for.
@Claudia, it is frustrating when they don’t give you any idea of how long the queues are. It’s not that they’re not booking appointments, what they’re doing I think is processing each application as they receive it and then will contact you to make an appointment. Still a notice on the website to give some indication of the waiting time would be nice, but none of the US embassies/consulates anywhere do this as far as I know. Probably because they’re still trying to conceal the fact that so many people are giving up their citizenship over FATCA.
We hear this over and over again. Were it me, I’d be writing the US Ambassador in Ottawa, and my MP, daily. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Or, at least one would think so. Didn’t work for me for either the US Ambassador(s) to Canada or to my previous MP. Unfortunately, I still have a Conservative MP and wouldn’t expect any change from the template of non-communication.
@Medea
Oh, I see what you’re saying — it’s not that they’re not booking appointments, it’s just that they will need to review what I’ve submitted first. That’s not the sense I got from the awkwardly-worded email I got from the consulate, but I hope you’re right!
@calgary411
That’s too bad, but kudos to you for trying.
@The Mom
There’s been a fair amount of press regarding the backlogs, but nothing seems to have changed. Maybe I’m being cynical, but I just don’t think making it faster or easier for people to expatriate is ever going to become a priority no matter how squeaky the wheel gets.
@Claudia, yes I think they’re making lists if you like of who’s applying when, i.e. day/month/year, and working through them one by one. As each application is received, i.e. paperwork returned to them, add details to the list. When new appointment slots become available they’ll work through those lists, find an appointment day/time and then contact the next applicant on the list to see if that’s okay for them. Everyone has to provide the same documents you filled in so it’s a question of where you are in the waiting list. Unfortunately what you/we don’t know is the ratio of applications to slots available.