Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
As Eric said, we need CLNs to complete the process of formal naturalization, and will not receive our passports otherwise. It seems to me that going through the formal renunciation process is the most straightforward, and perhaps quickest, way.
I’m still unclear about 8854. We have no pensions, period. Bad planning, but there you go. So that part’s easy. But I still need a straight answer about how to list our house: Is it the full market value or the net gain? I can interpret “net worth” as “full market value”, but “net worth for tax purposes” could mean the phantom capital gain only. It makes a difference. Any guidance?
Barbara,
Since you have to *pretend* you sold all of your assets the day before your expatriation, it is the full market value — what it would sell for, your house or any other asset…
http://financialanswers.com/page.php?b=24549975-0&c=1448
Barbara. Apologies for not being clear the first time.
In part V Schedule A you put the fair market value of your house. That is the price you would get if you sold it the day before you renounce. A formal evaluation is not required.
Your cost doesn’t enter into the calculations unless you have more than 2 million US$ in assets on that day.
If that were the case, it’s a whole different story and professional help would be ideal. If your assets were more than 2 million, then you would fill in columns (b) and (c) and total your gain of all your assets.
Then there would be a $680,000 deductible and you would pay the exit tax at a percentage of the rest That’s why it’s extremely helpful to be under 2 million. In that case, some say you only fill out column (a). That’s what I would do. Others say you should complete column (b) and (c) as well- I don’t see the point if you are not a so-called covered expatriate.
Thanks, all. Sorry to prolong this, but the issue of relinquishment versus renunciation intrigues me. If I am naturalizing in a country that does not recognize dual citizenship and requires proof of renunciation of all other nationalities before finalizing the process, is that grounds for claiming relinquishment? After all, I have no choice in the matter, as it is required by my new nationality.
My main concern is that relinquishment may take a long time to produce the CLN. In the meantime I will be stuck in a twilight zone, technically with no nationality…and no passport. If I travel during that time on my US passport, I assume that would negate the relinquishment claim. Again, among all the information here, I am nevertheless cloudy about some aspects of the process. I’m under the impression that when you renounce, you’re given an actual copy of the CLN document at your last appointment, though it isn’t yet endorsed by the State Department. I will check with the local Immigration authorities whether this non-endorsed CLN will suffice to complete the naturalization process. If it does suffice, then renunciation is clearly the preferred procedure.
What is anyone’s recent experience in the time frame to receive a CLN after relinquishment?
Barbara,
You can read at the Consulate Report Directory that Pacifica maintains, http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/, so much about the whole process of both renunciation and relinquishment and many experiences of both at various US consulates, both in Canada and around the world. Information was shared by readers here and is one of the most valuable resources here at Brock.
No, there will be a wait for the CLN no matter which course you take and one is not faster than the other nor is there any rhyme or reason the length of time it takes, consulate vs consulate. You will, however, get a receipt for the fee you pay which should also indicate that is was for renunciation (mine) or I assume relinquishment (which can be yours if you become a citizen of another country and do so with the intent of losing your US citizenship). From that time on, you should do nothing that would be construed US. Anything prior to that act you did while a US citizen and is irrelevant. Keep that with you to show IF you are challenged while travelling (which you’re not likely to be). Your expatriation will also be on a database that can be checked by border officials. An excellent idea, I think, is what Mr. EmBee did when he became a Canadian citizen — he had a self-prepared document that he had signed at his citizenship ceremony that indicated his expatriation with the intent of losing US citizenship (one more layer of proof). If at your appointment with a US Consulate to claim relinquishment from the date your become a citizen of your country there is any reason not the Consul does not think you have means (you do – and shouldn’t have a problem!), you can at that same appointment renounce instead — either way will now be for the same exorbitant fee and either will have a wait for your CLN — they will indicate how long that *might* take at your appointment, but they don’t know for sure — that is all signed, sealed and delivered from Washington, DC.
@Calgary411: Wow, I thought I’d read everything at IBS. That Consular Report is gold! Relinquishment is starting to make sense. Too bad we’ll be missing the no-fee relinquishment CLN. I think I’ll pay our $4700 in one dollar bills, each stamped with the words “Freedom dollar” to make the point that we’re buying our freedom like emancipated slaves.
Thanks to everyone. I wish I could hug all of you for the wonderful, heartfelt and generous advice you’ve given me. I will post updates about any glitches and interesting experiences once we get the process started.
Thanks, Eric.
Bubblebustin nailed it: “See how confusing this stuff can be….”
More proof that the terrorists who founded the U.S. took the easy way out.
@Barbara
FWIW, I disagree with those who advise going for relinquishment. Relinquishment requires that you make a case with supporting arguments on form 4079 to state your claim. That claim can be denied, and it’s not at all clear whether you’d get your $2350 back if it were. Theoretically, it will take longer for a relinquishment than for renunciation, since the former involves a judgement on your case by the State Dept., the latter is (for 99,99% of those renunciating) cut and clear; no decision is required. Whether the USA will somehow in the future “punish” those who renounced, while leaving those who relinquished in peace, is simply a matter of wild speculation.
The decision relinquishment over renunciation seems more evened out with the, effective in six days, US$2,350.00 fee for either. If only one knew if there were further ramifications from DOS, one decision over the other. Barbara would have it seems, the same claim to relinquishment as others who chose when there was a financial benefit in fee over no fee. Is it all now just a toss-up with this funneling into renunciation over relinquishment with same fee for the CLN for both? Are the optics different one over the other? Does the decision still matter? Can one function after expatriation without that document? Who knows?
@Bsrbara
You make a good point.
If you chose renunciation then you should be able to travel on your US passport until it is approved. At least that was what I was advised by my Consulate but there have been reports of othets that have had their passports taken from them. I would check with your Consulate If you chose relinquishment, it should not be denied as you are not trying to claim a backdated one. BUT if you use your US passport in the interim, to travel to the US your relinquishment may be denied.
@ heidi
The US Consulate in Calgary gave my husband (at his request during his early 2014 relinquishment appointment) an interim letter which he could have presented at the border (along with his Canadian passport) to gain admittance to Mordor should he have needed to go there while waiting for his CLN to arrive. He didn’t use it but it was nice to have it. (They took his American passport during the appointment.) I don’t know if other consulates are that obliging.
@embee
Each Consulate seems to be a rule into itself. I was told to use my US passport until the renunciation cln was issued, even though I already had another citizenship. I then had to return the US passport personally and collect the cln. So I guess that Barbara should call or email and check their procedure before making her decision.
@Heidi, in one of the newer versions in the 7 FAM series………..it states that anyone applying for a CLN can request the retention of their US Passport until the CLN arrives to facilitate travel to the homeland.
So I think its worthwhile for anyone to locate that and take it to any consulate meeting.
@ Heidi
We were both happy my husband didn’t have to travel back to the consulate (once was enough). His cancelled American passport was returned with his CLN — by mail. I don’t know if that interim letter was standard issue. It was something he asked about by e-mail, prior to the appointment, and he reminded them about it when he got there. And absolutely, you never know what a consulate will or will not do … but it never hurts to ask for something like that interim letter which I believe was a reasonable request. At that time there was no charge for relinquishing so he would not have even had a receipt as proof that he was in the process of getting a CLN.
@ George
Right and travelling back to the consulate to get your passport officially cancelled and to pick up your CLN can be a burden to anyone who lives a great distance away. I thought the interim letter was a slicker way to handle things.
In Ottawa, Canada in April 2014, they confiscated my had-expired-in-1976 US passport as part of the relinquishing process. It was returned almost a year later with my CLN. It was stamped “cancelled” and in pen was added “Relinquished US citizenship on 8/14/1986 under section 3 49(a)(1)”
I had requested a letter at my relinquishing meeting specifying that I had officially informed them that I had relinquished and the process was underway. They pulled a letter out of the computer to give me. I had it with me when I travelled to the US later in the year, using of course my Canadian passport – but I didn’t need to dig it out. I was asked the date I had gone for the relinquishing meeting since the topic did come up and I was even able to have a memory lapse and give an incorrect date (off by a week). Still let me in.
The Consulate did give me the choice to mail in the US passport and by return, they would mail my cln but I preferred an exchange to awaiting the mail. I was handed back the passport with a hole punched in it.
Recounting of successful renunciation of a minor;
http://hodgen.com/the-expatriation-chronicles-of-an-accidental-american-episode-10/
“……tenth episode of The Expatriation Chronicles, in which we follow the renunciation process from start to finish with a 17-year old Irish girl who is an Accidental American.”
Hmm…my consulate had me sign a relinquishment paper there (they had struck out the word renounce & left “relinquish”, multiple times, on the form), in addition to the 4079 I had brought with me- but I can’t find this form on the net…Does anyone here have an idea of which one it might be? They also took my passport, and said I must wait for a letter from the State Dept. This was a nearly six months ago now.
I intended to relinquish at the time I took citizenship in AU but due to confusion surrounding all of it, thought I had to wait. So, they had me write out an additional paper explaining what had led to my waiting (which I did). They stapled the forms together. As I was relinquishing, not renouncing, I paid no fee & they didn’t give me anything in the form of a receipt. The woman basically wished me well “in my new life”, it felt like she was saying.
Now reading all of this, I’m kicking myself for not asking for something- even to indicate that they have my passport (not that I intend to travel, but still). All I have as proof that I was even there is the fact that I had my daughter with me and some back & forth emails. Is there an average wait time (guesstimate) for a CLN?
Also, re: banking the ANZ bank now has, printed on their new account forms, this:
“Under a tax agreement between the Australian and United States governments, ANZ is required to ask you to confirm whether you are a US tax resident or a US citizen when you opened your account.
ANZ has recorded that you are not a US tax resident or US citizen.
ANZ may need to contact you for further information in relation to your response. If the response we have recorded is incorrect, please contact our specialist team.”
This must be new because there was nothing like this when I first opened my accounts years ago. FYI
Jane, was the form this one: http://citizenshipsolutions.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/4081-81607.pdf?
You, like many of us, left the US Consulate with no copies in hand of anything we signed. Some of us for renunciation at least received a receipt indicating the amount paid for RENUNCIATION. You, on the other hand, were lucky you did not have to pay that fee (which changes on November 9th) but came away completely empty-handed.
There is no rhyme nor reason to how long it takes for anyone to receive their CLN. Some have received theirs very quickly; a few have taken over a year to have theirs in hand. You could call the US Consulate where you had your appointment to inquire on the status of yours. If it drags on and on, you can also get information re how to make the query to someone in Washington, D.C.
Thanks for the example of how your bank asks for *US Citizen* information, including to be sure to contact them if the information they originally have on file for you is incorrect. I’d say they now have it correct — you are NOT (now) a US citizen or US tax resident (and you will hopefully soon have the document to prove that if the need should arise).
You may find it useful and interesting to read the information others have provided regarding their expatriation experiences in the Consulate Report Directory http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/ (maintained by Pacifica here at Isaac Brock Society).
@Calgary, there is no rhyme or reason as to what each consulate does on this!!!
They are making it up as they go along. But I think less is being made up as time goes along at least that 7 FAM is no stating things more clearly such as allowing one to retain the passport. Though I have to admit you would need to take copies of that State Department FAM with you and educate the employees on their own guidance!!
@calgary411
Yes, that’s the form- I must be going blind…I actually have it in a folder I made a while ago. 😛
The entire process (if you can call it that, more like the bowel movement of a severely constipated individual) is so completely convoluted, arbitrary to the extreme, & disjointed- it literally feels like a “whim” or a coin-toss (which would actually be much less painless & quicker). The embassy here seemed unsure how to even proceed at all (“why are you here if you’re relinquishing?”) Um, because that’s what it says to do on the DOS site???
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
I mean really! It seems every person is treated differently, asked different questions, have one visit, or two, have to wait 1- 16 months for the same “service” (CLN)….etc, etc…How is any of that end of it even legal? This is a relinquishing of citizenship- you’d think that it would be completely regimented & followed to a “T”? Just so things were being handled legally/properly, you know what I mean? It’s so weird.
I wonder why the girl from here: http://hodgen.com/the-expatriation-chronicles-of-an-accidental-american-episode-10/ , mentions she has to file returns for zero taxes. I guess no one told her that 8854 is enough in such case…
@James
I assume she, as me, want to have an agent certified to file on our behalf.
Chalk it up to fear of screwing up…
I’ll stlll file 0 tax just to be compliant. I hate it. The US has become a terrible country…I”m devastated.
Phil Hodgen, who the girl was working with, advocates filing zero tax returns. If memory serves the reason is that that way you don’t have to worry about the IRS asking you 20 or 30 years later why you didn’t file, and also please provide all supporting documentation. It seems to be a CYA thing, and the more paranoid one is, the more it makes sense.