Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Sovel, “Boris Johnson was turned back by over-zealous airline staff, not the border guards.”
Had he been allowed to board in ?2008? and landed in the USA on his UK passport, I suspect he would have neen admitted and the US Immigration would have rightly assumed he relinquished when he was first elected to Parliament many years prior!!
NONE of his later problems would have occurred…..
Calgary411
The U.S. birthplace complicates such any clear basis for denying James entry. Their attitude might be that as it’s unclear to them whether he’s there to “work”, they might grant him entry on the basis of his birthplace.
@James
I agree that you should have some kind of documentation that states that you are there only for training and not employment, so it’s clear you’re entering on that basis.
James. By now you might be thoroughly confused and frightened. A Canadian airline has never caused problems for a Canadian flying to the US because of a US PoB on their Canadian passport.
I think it highly unlikely you would be turned back, James. You may be asked about your U.S. birthplace and informed that you may still be considered a citizen and that as a citizen you are required to use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the country. I’ve heard of that happening but in those cases people have still been allowed to proceed with their travel plans.
As the length of your stay is very short and you will have a return ticket I presume, I can’t imagine any question being raised about attending a training event in the U.S. (Legally of course IF you are still a U.S. citizen you are entitled to work in the U.S. but I agree with others that it would be advisable not to claim any rights you may or may not have as a U.S. citizen until you’ve had a chance to evaluate your situation further).
Hi all,
Thank you so much for the responses. Yes, the trip is just a plant tour and a few meals out then flying back. Total of 2 night and 3 days. My Canadian employer is paying me….no American employer and do not work for an American employer. The product we sell is US made….
I must admit, I am a little taken aback by the whole idea of even a small chance of being turned away. That would put me in a bad place…
I have crossed many times by car and air with a Canadian passport showing my birth place as Washington D.C. I have never had a problem. You should be fine.
@Linda
Thank you for that. Eases my mind. Does it ever come up by the folks at the airports?
Hi its James again.
I am learning about all this just now. As a hard working Canadian – I have some savings in rrsp’s tfsa’s etc
Again, never thought that I should or should not be filing having moved to Canada at 10 months old/born to Canadian parents…
Would crossing the border create some sort of alert to the IRS that I may need to be filing?
Hi, James.
It’s very unlikely you will create any kind of an alert with your upcoming travel — but who knows what that will look like in the future.
As a hard working Canadian like many of us here, who do not consider ourselves US-deemed US citizens, please consider joining in the Canadian litigation. You are not at all alone in never having thought about filing with the US.
Here is the site of Alliance for the Sovereignty of Canadian Sovereignty: http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
and, here is where we’re at in those efforts in Canada – http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/09/30/plaintiffs-giny-and-gwen-are-denied-injunction-pending-summary-trial-appeal/.
We would welcome more support. At any event, read all there is here to familiarize yourself with options so you will, when you are ready to do so, make whatever decision for yourself going forward.
@James,
Google “IRS customs hold. For example:
http://www.federaltaxgroup.co/irs-customs-hold-risk/
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2014/10/06/delinquent-taxpayers-prepare-to-be-stopped-at-us-border-entry/
I only glanced at the above, but it seems the current danger is for people the IRS has already assessed as owing taxes. Personally, I think it’s only going to get worse over time, especially once phase 3 & 4 of the Entry/Exit Initiative gets implemented:
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/btb-pdf/ebsiip-asfipi-eng.html
If the IRS can use this to track non-US persons who spend enough time in the US to become resident for tax purposes, they could likely use it to nab US persons (US place of birth on passport but no registered Loss of Nationality) with no tax history, and/or whom FATCA has unearthed, etc.
@James: As the wise calgary411 notes, you’re not likely to face any issues with the border crossing.
I was in a similar position to you, being born in the US (to two Canadian parents), moving to the US when I was 1.5, and only coming as a regular visitor over the next 47 years. No one ever made a point of my possible US citizenship until about 3 years ago, when the border guard threatened to not allow me in because I was trying to come in on a “foreign” passport. He let me in that particular day, but it led me to follow up on his points (about being a U.S. citizen).
I thought it would be rather nice to have confirmation of US citizenship (ah, the innocent joys of the naive), and went through a lengthy and somewhat-expensive process of getting a copy of my birth certificate and applying for the passport. I had NO idea, like most of us, of the bizarre and unjust US tax laws.
Since then, I’ve been going through the compliance-and-renunciation process. I decided on a DIY quiet disclosure, since for conscience’ sake I was willing to TRY to become compliant to the limit of my understanding of these interminable IRS documents, but I was’t willing to spend $10k+ of my family’s money on lawyers and accountants to satisfy a foreign government’s unreasonable demands.
As calgary411 says, educate yourself, read endlessly, determine your appetite for risk and for conscience, then act decisively. The Brocker’s are the best friends a troubled “U.S. Person” could have.
Yes, I agree, OddlyNamed…
Thanks for your kind words. Congratulations again and I wish you the good success in becoming compliant without dropping $10k of your family’s savings into a US accounting firm’s pockets.
Daniel Alfaro says
October 4, 2015 at 11:53 am
Section 350 of Law 1952 repealed in 1978 .
I was born, by accident 1n 1939, a dual citizen when my father ,non US citizen, was attached to his country´s Consulate .We left the US and have never lived there. In 1966 ,at the age of 27 I needed to travel to the US and requested a VISA and was told that since I was born in the US and my father had not been acredited as a foreing diplomat I was entitled to a US Passport which I accepted ,not knowing US tax Laws.After the age of 22 (1961)(and before also) I lived for more tan three years in my other country(not US),voted in presidential elections,obtained my social security in this country and did not make the oath to the USA in those three years.My passport was given in 1967.¿ Did I loose my US nationality at 25 years? which the Us Consulate did not consider.
Comments would be gratly appreciated
As far as I know in 1968 the US did not permit dual citizenship so I am puzzled if you were given the US passport without any questions about your other nationality.
Hello everyone. May I ask few questions regarding Form 8854? I’ve tried reading the accompanied instructions but couldn’t seem to get a clear explanations on a few things.
1) On Part IV Section A Line 1, does it refer to tax after factoring “Other Taxes” into it? In other words, if I’m looking at Form 1040 of year 2014 for example, would it be the value from Line 56 or from Line 63? And if I expatriated in 2015, am I correct to think that the 5 tax years in question are from year 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014?
2) If I’m not required to complete Part IV Section B (I’m not a covered expatriate), do I still need to complete Part IV Section C? Should I just tick on the “No” option on Section C Line 11 and leave the rest of them empty? Or do I just skip Section C altogether since it seems to be closely related and connected to Section B (which I’m not required to complete)?
3) On Part V, if I do not have an entry for a line, do I simply leave it blank or should I enter “-0-” or “N/A”?
4) And lastly, am I required to attach a copy of Form I-407 (signed & stamped by the US Embassy) when I file Form 8854? I didn’t see it mentioned anywhere on the instructions and was wondering if the IRS requires some sort of “proof” of the expatriation act.
Thank you.
Born on US soil therefore lost any other citizenships at that point would be my guess.
Looking at the Act it certainly seems as if you did, though whether in repealing it the US also repealed its effects is another question. Wish I’d known of it, I could have used that instead of renouncing – had I known I’d be renouncing in the future of course.
Erin, Welcome to the wonderful world of form nation.
1) they want your tax liability for the 5 years you mentioned. That would correspond to line 63
2)Part IV section C is not required. Leave it blank.
3) Leave blank. Another option is to fill in column (a) only- as a balance sheet to show you are under the 2mill US$ threshold and write ‘N/A net worth under $ 2 million ‘ across the other columns.
4) I see no requirement to attach a copy of I 407.
They will show little interest if you are well below the threshold. You will probably never even receive an acknowledgment
Daniel. It depends on who you talk to. According to the law in 1966, I think your US passport was issued in error. You had relinquished based on having voluntarily claimed benefits of a foreign state. At that time, there was no requirement to notify the state department nor a requirement to get a CLN
On the other hand, they did issue you a passport in 1966 and, as you know, that law was repealed in 1978 .
Think long and hard before accepting the idea that you are still a US citizen. To get the US to agree might be difficult. Depends on why you are asking.
PortlandPLC
Your comment very helpful
Thank you
@daniel. I thought sec 350 applied to me and I didn’t get the feeling that DOS would not consider it. My problem was that I didn’t understand the required sequence of events. I did not live in Canada 3 years after I claimed benefit of my other citizenship before 350 was repealed in 1978. So as long as you are dual by birth, voted or got a passport etc. and lived in the other country for three years after claiming benefit it should be accepted. Your problem as I see it is that you got a US passport and therefore in their view claiming your USness. I just don’t know if DOS will accept that.
@Erin
My cross-border tax preparer (who works for a cross-border tax lawyer) says Part V (columns a,b, and c) is required even if you’re not a covered expat (and even if you’re one of the dual-from-birth people who get a pass on the net worth test). I believe Phil Hodgen says the same thing (*). Cross-border tax professionals are very much into CYA, so read into that what you will.
You are so close now to being finished with this thing, I’d suggest that unless you can find something that *definitively* says that Part V (in whole or in part) is not required, then just fill the whole thing in to make the beast happy. It’s a pain in the ass to do so (it potentially means digging up old information and guesstimating other stuff), but it means that should someone get a bee in their bonnet and decide to give all 8854s a close look, yours won’t stand out and there won’t be an obvious (to the IRS) reason to disqualify you from being a non-covered (uncovered?, naked?) expat.
There was a lively discussion re Part V some months ago here at IBS. Some were of the opinion that filling it in was only required for covered expats. My opinion was pretty much as stated above. You can make a decision for yourself based on your interpretation of the 8854 instructions and form, and your comfort level in taking what may (or may not) be a shortcut.
Search for “teenage entrepreneur” at http://hodgen.com/valuation-date-for-expatriates-balance-sheet/ for Hodgen’s take on this.
Hodgen’s teenage entrepreneur had a net worth > 2 million. A somewhat different situation. You will be fine either way.
Hi Cheryl, my sequence of events was as follows :
1939 born accidentaly in the US when father ,diplomat, was chancellor at his country´s Consulate in the US.
No member of the family is a US citizen.Left in infancy when father ,,was posted to another country.
1956 returned to my home country to finish high school and college and stayed thereafter.
1959 obtained my military identification and voting card in my country.
1963 finished college and obtained first full time job and applied for my country´s social security. Had Voted in every oportunity in presidential and municipal elections. since 1959.
1966 (age 27) applied for US visa in my foreing Passport. Was called to US Consulate and told that my father had not been acredited as a diplomat and therefore I had aquired US nationality but that if I had voted in my country,which I had; I might have lost it.There was a similar case up for descision for the Supreme Court and therefore if I needed I could be considered an alien for the time being unless I wanted to define my nationality at this point and should do so in whrighting. My job required for me to travel to the US to see suppliers and I did not want to créate bad feelings or have repercussions with my employer so said I would wait and was given a temporary visa for one trip..
1967 I received a letter from the Embassy with ruling of Supreme Court telling me that my registration had been approved and that I was no longer entitled to travel with a visa so I could apply for a Passport which I did (I was 28 years) ,not having knowledge of tax situation which would lead to the Facta nightmare which I have taken knowledge at my 76 years. I never applied for ss in the US ,never been in the US for more than 15 days in a given year, no investments, accounts etc.in the US. My point is that according to 350 I had lost US nationality when I was 25 and therefore it was a mistake to give me a Passport at the age of 28 and should have been given a visa as originally requested. I don´t know if this matter should be presented to the Us Cónsul or to the Department of State , obviously with the assistance of some lawer familiar with this issue since the concept to which I have arrived is from friendly comments here and the valuable assistance of a relative. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.
I naturalized as a UK citizen with the intention of renouncing my US citizenship. By what used to be printed in old passports, that is it done. But they want me to pay. So here is my quandry. I was nearly in tower 1 on 911 at a meeting of the GSTPA/FIX committee from which every single attendee died. I discover that the US abetted the terrorism by not investigating the event, and by mass murdering millions of people subsequently. Paying any money to the IRS or the US government is directly financing terrorism and would put me afoul of international, UK and US laws on financing terrorism and terrorist organisations. On this account, i refuse to pay them ever again. THEY have perpetrated the expatriating act by collaborating with parties that tried to murder me and thousands of others that day 15 years ago. So how to get rid of this citizenship without violating the terrorism laws? I have the filled out forms and whatnot. They will surely block me from meeting a consular officer, though i’ve already expatriated by naturalizing with that intention. I could take a very loud speaker and go to Edinburgh and expatriate to the consular officer through the walls of the embassy and film it for youtube to verify that i have performed this final act. I could just make a long youtube video of expatriation showing the full story and call that a public expatriation…. how do i expatriate without violating the UK terrorism statutes that make it a crime to finance a terrorist organisation. Just as i write this, the US terrorism against international law is murdering people in syria; so its not some past event, but actively financing terrorism that i can’t do. How do i get out from their evil empire?
@Daniel,
When did you last renew, and last use, your US passport?
Here are my thoughts…
If it was before Oct 1975, you could perhaps argue for INA 350 relinquishment by virtue of the fact that there was a 3-year period where you met the INA 350 requirements for loss of citizenship. Error or not, the fact that you obtained and used a US passport at age 28 certainly means that you can’t claim you (intended to) lose it at age 25. There is nothing magic about age 25. INA 350 requires any 3-year period anytime after age 22, but has to be completed prior to the repeal of INA 350 in Oct 1978. The fact that you took advantage of US citizenship at age 28 shouldn’t exclude you from deciding to give it up at age 32 (as long as you never renewed or used the passport after the start date of your 3-year period).