Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Scaredsh*tless
What’s with your financial advisor asking you if you’d ever been a US citizen, then when you said you “had” been he said you still are and referred you to an accountant vs someone who might actually have the knowledge to make that assessment? Sounds like entrapment to me. I would ask him is he’s getting a finder’s fee for this tax accountant he referred you to.
@Bubbles……you are exactly correct, no one should be asking have you ever been a USC!!!!!
@George
Are you, or have you ever been………smells of McCarthyism and self-incrimination.
I hope someone sues the pant off these people.
Any one know a good Immigration Lawyer in Calgary that could help me get a proper professional opinion?
@Scared….this is going to sound like self promotion…….but you need to pick up the phone and call John Richardson.
He will want some documents from you, you will need to state what you did, when you did it and why you did it.
He can then give you an opinion letter.
Bottom line? You are NOT a USC and these people are jerking you around. You need to go elsewhere.
Are you a USC? NO
Where were you born? GERMANY
Citizenship? CANADIAN
END OF STORY
You need to not walk, you need to run away from these people and you may want to threaten then with legal action.
@Bubbles……..have you noticed over the months and now maybe years…BOTH of us have gotton more militant on this?
Seeing “scared…” I have this bad feeling this is going to happen to hundreds of thousands…..needlessly.
@Calgary411…………you are the poster child!!!! And to that I say NEVER AGAIN.
You were ripped off, entrapped, lied to……….you were sold a limited partnership interest in a silk worm farm in Antigua!!!
@George
All I’ve done is replaced fear with anger. Both are bad, but fear renders you powerless, whereas anger can be extremely motivating. There’ll be plenty to keep me motivated, I suspect, when we hear more and more stories like Scared’s.
I just hope I don’t spontaneously combust one day.
Hello, a close relative was born in the USA 75 years ago to south american parents which where in diplomatic mission. When my relative was 24 he got a Visa to enter the USA. Then 3 years later , when he went to renew his visa in his south american Passport, he was told that he had to get a US Passport to enter the states, which he did. They said that his “father” was not in a list of diplomats. Great mistake. Any idea what he can do to relinquish the US nationality ??
Thks
CDF
Beware of Moody’s Gartner
CDF he’s 75 yrs old. Why bother?
Portland PLC, other than ‘Why bother’ for some other reason, what is the reasoning for *he’s 75 yrs old. Why bother?*
At 75 they are unlikely to bother him. He doesn’t have his whole life ahead of him to worry about it.
Just wondering as I’m just shy of 72. I don’t worry about me (because I got my CLN and OUT at age 70, but I worry about my son, even after or perhaps especially after I’m gone — and all families like his. I know of others who are older than I who still seem to have a lot to worry about. I don’t see any guarantees by the US that past a certain age we’re too old to bother with but would welcome that news. How do we really know what’s likely and what’s not likely — not that anyone of us should have to worry about all of this at any age? I’m still in the fight for ALL of us.
Well, I wouldn’t write anybody off because of their age – we’d have considerably less participation at Brock if we did!
But more importantly, things like if the local banks are refusing to open accounts for persons with US place of birth, I don’t see that being over 70 will protect them.
So, as I see it, as with anyone, he has to evaluate is this situation affecting him – and if not currently, is it likely to? Can he do nothing and live under the radar – both is that practical for him and would he be comfortable doing so or would he find it stressful? Would he feel more comfortable or more stressed by taking action (such as renouncing citizenship or applying for a CLN based on a prior relinquishing act, if he has performed one)?
At any rate, welcome, Cesar. I can’t really think of anything more specific than that because I don’t know much about your relative’s situation.
But to answer a general question — you asked what can he do to relinquish his US nationality. Ways to relinquish (besides renunciation) are taking government employment or serving in the military or naturalising (if born dual, one could do this if naturalised in a third country) if the person had the intention of terminating their US citizenship by so doing (and has not acted as a US citizen since). Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a).
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be ageist. I’m 72. I just meant if he has been off the radar for 75 years it’s unlikely anything will change.
@Cesar asked: “Hello, a close relative was born in the USA 75 years ago to south american parents which where in diplomatic mission. … he was told that he had to get a US Passport to enter the states, which he did. They said that his “father” was not in a list of diplomats. … Any idea what he can do to relinquish the US nationality ??”
1. Don’t compare your relative’s case to @Scared’s who was probably an American citizen at birth but most probably lost that citizenship.
2. Your relative’s father either was on the “blue list” as a diplomatic agent in Washington or was on the “white list” of quasi-diplomatic personnel (whose offspring born in the USA are US citizens) or may have been assigned to a consulate (children also US citizens). Or he could have been TDY — a situation in which he would have had immunity (and the child probably not a US citizen — but there might be no records at the State Department and he would need extrinsic proof.
In any event if there is a question as to facts and your relative can make a credible case that he is not a US citizen and that the passport was issued by mistake (in this sort of case where there is no question of restoration of lost citizenship by the Supreme Court subject only to affirmative act by the former citizen) an erroneous application for a passport does not, itself, make the holder a US citizen).
If the relative never intends to return to the USA and if there is doubt as to his US citizenship he can blow off the IRS which is not about to initiate such a hard, expensive case against an elderly man. BUT if there is an issue of the US citizenship of your relatives children and grandchildren then you need to consult a competent immigration and nationality lawyer. There are just too many facts to deal with on a form, I think.
If the relative has property in the USA there is a whole further issue of estate taxation and exemptions for citizens’ and noncitizens’ estates.
There is a concept of “possession d’état” relating to long-term apparent status as a citizen. That’s a civil-law, not a Common Law, concept but one has to ask: has your relative been living and working and traveling as an American citizen all these years? It might affect the advice.
There are more people than you can imagine who are of doubtful US nationality, often because of qualifying residence of a parent, of US residence required for retention of citizenship under old law, false documents, identity or status of parents … it becomes difficult, sometimes impossible, to attack the US nationality of their children born abroad by collaterally attacking the nationality of a deceased person. But your relative is alive.
@Calgary411 wrote: “but I worry about my son, even after or perhaps especially after I’m gone …”
In the USA — like everywhere — there is one law for the rich and another for everybody else.
As you are not a US citizen in principle you could set up a discretionary trust if you had lots of money. Even if your son is subject to reporting requirements (form 3520, 3520A, FinCEN114 and there rest) the trustee would not be subject to PFIC. And your son would be, more than likely, immune to prosecution. And would never touch the trust money himself if the trust is properly drawn.
But the chances of you having that kind of assets are not great, based on your prior postings here and on your press interviews. If I’m wrong, then a world’s expert on this sort of thing (I attended his lectures at The Hague Academy in 1995) is Professor Emeritus Donovan W.M. Waters at Victoria University, counsel at Horne Coupar in Victoria.
Thanks for your comment, andy05. I appreciate that and I realize I must one day, when I trust discussing this with a lawyer here that helps families plan for their sons’ or daughters’ futures, deal with this better / in a more responsible way. (For me who thought I was responsible in my financial planning / saving for my needed peace of mind that my *special-needs family member* will be OK after they’re gone, this kick in the gut makes me realize that *No, I am not in control* — and I’m sure that is the same for other such families — at least the ones that realize what is happening.)
In the meantime, I am taking some heart in the treatment explained by Phil Hodgen for a non-covered expatriate (me) leaving an inheritance (which, by that time if I am around for another decade or, pushing it, two, will mainly be the worth of my personal residence which has increased unrealistically in value in inner-city Calgary since I bought in 1991) to my *US-deemed US citizen son who cannot renounce that US-deemed US citizenship though he has never lived or had any benefit from the US* and my non-covered expatriate daughter who has also renounced her US citizenship (but perhaps mine is folly): http://hodgen.com/gifts-bequests-inheritances-and-expatriation/.
(After reading the update to https://adcsovereignty.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/analysis-adcsovereignty-cdnfatcatrial-royberg1-practitioners-anxiously-await-the-courts-decision/, referenced in http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/08/25/an-interesting-analysis-of-an-analysis-john-richardson-on-roy-berg-on-the-summary-trial/, I also listened once again to “John Richardson interviews Andrew Grossman, March 16, 2014”.
I suggest that anyone reading here who has a thirst to hear more opinion on who may be and who may not be deemed a US citizen (and how the IRS looks at some born abroad, never registered, etc.), including the nuances one must take into account, also listen or re-listen. It is an essential discussion, two lawyers with a great interest in and expertise of the subject of *citizenship*. Fascinating and, from it, information for me to take into account. Thank you.)
Thanks again for all the advice offered previously. I’m considering pursuing relinquishment through my previous employment with Alberta Health Services. I was unable to find my letter of employment, but do have an ROE. Should I try to track down further proof of employment, or would that be acceptable? Any advice as to what other documents I should provide to seek relinquishment based on government employment?
@Emty
You _REALLY_ need to make the effort to get a letter from AHS stating your employment there including the exact date that you started. Honestly, I don’t know if the ROE will suffice but include it if you have both.
You could send an email to the Calgary consulate to ask if they will accept the ROE but since your employment was not that long ago AHS should still have you on record.
Just a reminder: no oath to the government employer of any kind is required for your relinquishment case because you were already a Canadian citizen. In Feb 2014 the Calgary consul, for example, insisted on an oath but they have since learned better.
Thanks @WhatAmI, I will contact AHS to see what I can get. I have one for every position I’ve taken since then of course, but not the initial one. The ROE does have the start date on it, but I will see what else I can get since more proof is probably better than less.
Is there anything else that I should provide for proof besides my letter of employment?
@Emty, to solidify your case you should go to a local lawyer/notary and swear a statement/affadavit that on a certain date you accepted employment with a political subdivision of Canada voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing your USC.
As an aside, there is the question as to how did you know this would occur? Many people discovered this printed inside their US Passport or that of a friend or colleagues US Passport.
@Emty
It can’t be over emphasized: at the time you took the employment, you knew you were still a USC, you knew that taking the employment was potentially an expatriating act, and you did it explicitly with the intent to relinquish your US citizenship. And again, you knew it would be a relinquishing act because…