Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Emty,
Yes, absolutely. AHS is the largest employer in the province. My wife works there. Alberta political policy and budgets change her priorities damn near daily. The Minister of Health fired the entire AHS board a couple years ago. You must know all about that!
I believe the hospital worker that we have been mentioning was in Alberta and she was successful.
Crown corporations also count. For example, the Atomic Energy Board and the post office. One Brocker claimed the CBC, but I think she is still waiting to hear her fate.
@Emty,
Your situation is rather unique here at IBS. You have a SS number and have filed all your taxes and FBARs and are deciding between claiming the relinquishment and renouncing. For people who have no US ties, many of us recommend the relinquishment route if there is a clean-cut case (like yours). There are 2 main reasons: 1, saving US$2350 and 2, not being bullied into declaring oneself a USC after living ones life believing you are not. Among many other distasteful things, it includes admitting you’re a tax filer evader and a draft dodger!
No relinquishment claim is guaranteed (but naturalization as an adult is nearly), but we have enough track records to tell good chances from poor. Yours are very good. Renunciation is guaranteed unless they detect that you’re being forced into it against your will, which is under your control and not likely to happen (and has never been reported here).
I love to see successful relinquishments partly because it denies the US their ridiculous renunciation fee. Some Brockers with CLNs still refuse to show them to banks and border guards, just out of spite.
I just spent 16 months of sleepless nights and worse waking days waiting to hear if my relinquishment would be approved. Add to that almost a year of the same agony leading up to my appointment date and another year of research before that. I’m over 60 and the last few years have been the worst in my life.
In hindsight, for myself, I would gladly rather walk in and pay US$2350 and have a guaranteed renunciation than suffer what I have in the last 2.5 years. Again, that is only in the case of already having a SSN and being tax-compliant. In hindsight, for myself, because I had no tax filings or any US ties (no SSN), I still would do what I did and claim the relinquishment. It was the right thing for me.
That’s just me. I’m sure that some people worry less than I, and some people just don’t have US$2350.
I’d welcome seeing other Brockers say “Nah, he’s a wimp; go for the relinquishment; it’s not that bad”. Only you can decide for yourself.
@ WhatAmI
What a horribly long time to get a piece of paper that affirms exactly what you already knew. Congratulations to you but a pox on those who dragged their gnarly bureaucratic feet in such a way as to extend your waiting agony. I’m glad you can sleep well now. 🙂
@ WhatAmI
So glad to hear that your finally got your CLN. What a relief for you. Terrible that the US made you wait so long.
Congratulations on your CLN WhatAmI. Just reading the details of your story (another good example of the US causing needless unjust mental anguish in law abiding everyday people) has me shaking my head in disgust at the US government again for the umpteenth time.
Enjoy the peace of mind.
@WhatAmI Thanks so much for all your input. I guess I have some decisions to consider. Congratulations on receiving your CLN. What a relief that must be.
Big Congrats to you @WhatAmI on your CLN!
What a long and inexplicable wait.
I know it was the State Dept. who held your CLN in limbo, but, as the IRS Taxpayer Advocate said about FATCA etc. ; “why are we tormenting these folks…….” ?
@badger
I believe the NTA used the word “terrorizing”.
I don’t know why anyone would renounce without being tax compliant, unless of course it’s solely for a CLN to show your bank. It’s like thumbing your nose at the IRS and painting a target on your back. What will the IRS do when the get wind that you’ve never filed and continue not to file?
“Accordingly, of the 5,211 former U.S. citizens published by the federal government for the four quarters of 2014 and the first two quarters of 2015 ALL probably continue to be subject to U.S. worldwide taxation unless they have completed IRS Form 8854 as described above and included the required information in a complete and accurate manner and signed it under penalty of perjury.”
http://tax-expatriation.com/2015/08/23/how-many-of-the-5211-former-u-s-citizens-who-renounced-are-still-u-s-taxpayers/
BB there must be lots of former U.S. Persons who have renounced and not been compliant. There isn’t much the IRS can do if they have no other connections.
@bubblebustin, even better, she characterized IRS behaviour as both “terrorizing” and “tormenting””:
“Olsen noted at a conference sponsored by the Tax Section of the
American Bar Association”……….”If the Ratzlaf standard for willfulness isn’t satisfied, then Olson said that the taxpayer should be given a break and permitted to only pay the accuracy-related
penalties. “Such an approach would increase voluntary compliance and
would stop terrorizing the entire country of Canada,” Olson observed.” See http://oicattorney.blogspot.ca/2012/11/taxpayer-advocate-fbar-penalties.html”
and,
“….”Again, that comes back to that proportionality issue,” Olson said. “So you’re really looking at this and thinking, why are we doing this to folks? Why are we tormenting them in this way?”.”…
from
October 8, 2014
FATCA ‘Tormenting’ Taxpayers, Olson Says
http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/features.nsf/Articles/FD2860D17810639485257D6B0052AC9C?OpenDocument
by William Hoffman
New blog series starting, with emphasis on Accidental Americans:
http://hodgen.com/the-expatriation-chronicles-of-an-accidental-american-episode-1/
And this is not an endorsement of the services of the blog’s authors. Just a posting of materials that might help other readers here.
@Badger
Thanks for that! For a country as preoccupied with terrorism as the US is (and thanks to C-51 Canada now too) you’d think that being accused of terrorism would be the worst thing you could say about the US! I guess both terrorizing and tormenting are good or bad, depending on who’s doing it.
I’m really concerned. I was not born in the US, I have no Social Security number and have lived in the US for only one year of my 40 years as a two year old. My birth certificate says American born abroad due to my American father who was stationed in Germany at the time. My father and German mother divorced when I was five and we moved to Canada with my mother’s new husband. I became a Canadian citizen in 2002. I had no idea that as an American I was obligated to file taxes to the U.S. Government. I assumed that by taking an oath to Canada I had relinquished my US citizenship. Since becoming a Canadian I have not used or reapplied for an American passport as I believed I was no longer a citizen. Well, it came to my attention by my recently hired financial advisor that yes indeed I was still an American. He made strong recommendations that I become compliant and renounce my US citizenship because of the major financial consequences it would burden myself and family with. I have tried to do the research to figure out which is the best way to go about this, but I am getting so much contradictory information. I am scared. To renounce will cost my family at least 7-10 grand, something that we do not have at the moment, but not renouncing could possibly get me into even bigger trouble down the road. Some advise would be great. Thank you very much.
@Scaredsh*tless
Your financial advisor should not be giving you citizenship advice considering you probably relinquished US citizenship when you became a Canadian in 2002. This means no US tax filings and no renunciation fee! You can also offer him a reasonable explanation as to why you don’t have a Certificate of Loss of Nationality, which will learn about here.
Scared: you have nothing to be afraid of and you have lots of choices. Take all the time you need.
1-you have a perfectly reasonable case that you are not an American Most importantly, do nothing at all to suggest you might be.
2-you’ve come to a good site. You will get lots of advice- some conflicting.
3- I see no reason to go to the consulate but if you decide to do so, your message should be that you intended to give up US citizenship when you became Canadian. Intent is important. You can easily prove intent as none of your actions demonstrate a desire to be American. There should be no charge and there are no tax filing requirements.
4- if you decide not to visit the consulate, and you are opening an account, your citizenship is Canadian, you were born in Germany ( actually it’s none of their business where you were born) and you can cheerfully sign a W8-Ben stating you are not a U.S. Person.
5- you should consider a different financial advisor. You are among friends . Good luck.
@ Scaredsh*tless,
Here’s links to some pages you may find of use. The first two pages are lists of links to Brock posts and source documents on the subjects.
Born Outside the US and/or Born Dual (Check the link on this page to the Dept of State’s “Table of Transmission Requirements for Citizenship” first to make sure you were a US citizen)
How to renounce/relinquish
This links to the consulate report directory, about 200 pages of people’s stories, arranged by consulate location. You may decide not to go for a CLN, but if you’re considering it, it’s worth a read.
These pages can also be accessed through the sidebar.
I’d suggest read up, ask questions, and mull things over. Don’t jump into anything.
We’re all in this mess, or were and have got ourselves out of it, so you’re among friends and collectively we’ve accumulated a lot of knowledge. In the end, each person and their fact set is different, so we come to different decisions, but you should find a lot here to help you make the one that’s right for you.
@Scaredsitless…….I concur with Bubbles but let me add some clarification and give you strength.
You do not apply for a relinquishment because you ALREADY relinquished.
You are NOT a US Citizen because in 2002 you committed a relinquishing act under 8 US Code. There is no further requirements, period end of story…….
Post FATCA and I say unfortunately, you need to prepare a file documenting your relinquishment. In that file you need;
1. Certificate of Canadian Citizenship.
2. A copy from Canada of your application with all the received stamps on it. Simply nice to have looking so official.
3. Its probably a good idea to trot down to your local lawyer/notary and swear an affadavit that on a date in 2002, you swore an oath to the Queen to become Canadian with the voluntary intention of relinquishing your US Citizenship. That will set you back fifty dollars……..
4. Make a copy of 8 US Code 1481
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
The above is your remedial action, you can stop there and be done. A CLN is not required to lose US Citizenship UNLESS you renounced.
With that done, regardless your US Tatoo is invisible………
Its now time to catch your breath after the above is done and WAIT….maybe a month….see if YOU are satisfied with the above……..
Beyond that you can apply for a CLN to document your PAST relinquishment. Appointments are hard to get anyway and you might just give up………
Regardless you are in a GREAT position and frankly many around here would be envious………
Best use of your funds is donate to ADCS
@Scared
Financial advisors should not be railroading customers into US tax compliance. For them, a little bit of knowledge in is a very dangerous thing (for you):
7.3 A financial institution may be asked to clarify the rules of determining a U.S. person. These rules are complex, and financial institutions are not expected to provide information on all aspects of U.S. tax residency. If an account holder asks for such a clarification, a financial institution can refer the account holder to U.S. government sources, such as the IRS website or U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. It is the responsibility of account holders to determine whether they are U.S. persons (see paragraph 8.69).
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/gdnc-eng.html#Toc390079622
Thank you for all your responses. They have set my mind at ease. The only problem I have is when I signed on to my financial advisor he asked me if I was or ever had been an American, and I being honest had said yes I had been. That was when he told me that I was technically still an American. He gave me an accountant who “specializes” in this sort of thing. I called him, explained my situation and he also said I had to relinquish. The financial institution that I am now with, will not remove my name unless I show a CLN. This is most frustrating. Is there something I can do about this without going through the process and getting a CLN, or should I just bite the bullet and apply? Thanks again for all your responses.
@Scaredsh*tless I can empathize with your situation, and as someone else mentioned, am even envious. I chose to relinquish, but because my Canadian citizenship took place in 2008, I did have to do the 5 years of tax filing. It would seem that you do not, given that you became a citizen prior to 2004. I can assure you that the onerous part of the whole process are the taxes, not the relinquishment. I did it myself. I wrote a statement about my intent to give up my US citizenship when I became Canadian, I backed it up with the fact I had not acted American in any way whatsoever ever since, I told them I had no idea I was considered American by the IRS and was setting the record straight. I am still waiting for my CLN, but I am sure I will receive it. That was all easy. The tax stuff was expensive and stressful.
You will have to make your own decision based on what leaves you feeling more at peace. If you decide to relinquish and be done with it so they can never come back and torment you, let me assure you it is easy to do the paperwork for that, even if you have to wait a while for an appointment. You should double-check there is nothing more to be done, like a tax form 8854, etc, from other people here that were in your situation of relinquishing prior to 2004. My distrust of the US is that they seem to constantly change their rules and screw people (pardon my language) who thought they were already free and clear. I chose to get out of their crazy system for good. Whatever you decide, good luck.
Neither the financial guy nor the accountant were qualified to say you were still American. They were both wrong. Once you perform a relinquishing act with intent you have given up U.S. cittizenship from that moment. The CLN comes later.
You could a) make an appointment to document relinquishment -this process will take well over a year. b) Self certify that you are not American by signing a W8-Ben – this is specifically permitted under the U.S. Canada IGA.
c). Switch financial institutions. This would be temping to me as I would have lost faith in the first guy.
b is easiest if they accept it. a is somewhat tedious. c is also tedious and there is a very small but finite risk that the first bank will report your account. You could threaten holy hell. Don’t know what they would do.
Just what we all need — financial advisors (who come in all stripes and varying knowledge) who should never be giving anyone this kind of advice. As more and more financial *advisors* advise like this, the more US-deemed *US Persons Abroad* will, in fear, do the wrong thing. Very dangerous territory!
Documenting your prior relinquishment ( tedious but surefire) is the best long term solution. It will take over a year but is straightforward as Readytogo has said. You can easily D.I.Y.
There is no fee and since you relinquished prior to 2004 there are no tax filings required- see the sidebar.
Be certain to insist to anyone who asks that you ceased to be American in 2002
@Scared asked: “Is there something I can do about this without going through the process and getting a CLN, or should I just bite the bullet and apply? Thanks again for all your responses.”
Do not, under any circumstances, seek a CLN unless and until you have proper legal advice AND a second opinion, that says you need to do that. To apply for a CLN can, itself, establish your US Person status and even make you liable for tax (and perhaps nonfiing non-declaration penalties) that otherwise do not apply to you.
I never take clients from the Internet and anyway am largely retired so this is not legal advice. But John Richardson (Toronto) or another qualified immigration lawyer — NOT a tax accountant or tax lawyer — is the right one to consult. And an opinion letter from such a lawyer should go via the legal counsel of the bank and get you the result you want.
Been there, done that. I cannot count the times a bank has refused an enduring (durable) POA or other document. I even once had a banker (Citibank no less) try to tell me (in 1970) that the bank “no longer issues letters of credit”. Where do they find these idiots? The guy had read in an in-house newsletter that “travelers’ letters of credit” (scarcely used anyway since the invention of the traveller’s cheque) had been abolished.
There are none so dumb … as those who were born that way.