Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Media. ” He’s filed the 8854 so fulfilled his obligations”
Chutes and ladder, chutes and ladders.
He left that part of the form blank.
If you do not answer YES/NO or leave something blank that must be filled in it is the same as not filing a form.
Interesting point picked up from a poster over on the English Forum regarding those awaiting their CLN’s and who need to travel to the States (thanks Mullhollander).
“Status of the U.S. passport pending approval of the CLN:
(1) 7 FAM 1 229 provides guidance on disposition of citizenship-related documentation;
(2) The post should obtain any and all valid U.S. passport(s) of the individual
when the individual executes either Form DS-4080, Oath of Renunciation of
the Nationality of the United States, or the statement of voluntary relinquishment portion of Form DS-4079, Questionnaire: Information for Determining Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship;
(3) The post should not cancel the U.S. passport, but rather retain the passport in a secure location until the approved CLN is received back from CA/OCS/ACS;
(4) If the intended expatriate advises the post that he or she needs the U.S.passport immediately because of intended travel to the United States, the consular officer should return the passport to the individual for such travel only until the loss of nationality case is approved. When post receives the approved Certificate of Loss of Nationality for the individual, post should inform the individual to appear in person at post to return the passport and receive the CLN. The CLN should not be provided to the individual unless the passport is returned. If the individual reports the passport as stolen or lost, applicable procedures should be followed;”
So if you need to travel to the States you should be able to get your US passport back.
Has anyone yet heard of a renunciant bring refused entry to the U.S.using the passport of their country of residence while awaiting their CLN? When I renounced in March I was advised just to explain the situation if I travelled to the US before receiving mine. I was also told to expect my CLN within 4-6 months. As it turns out I will be going there at the 6 month mark– one month from now. My plan is to use my Canadian passport and have the receipt for the renunciation fee with me.
It’s a two hour drive to the consulate and I’m not keen on using my US passport anyway as I have exercised my right to renounce.
Hi, wondering if there are insights about getting an appointment to renounce.
I have been trying to get an appointment in 2015.
I have tried 2 locations in canada and have appointment for 2016, but that means another year of paying accountant for another return, no taxes owing. I am well below the exit tax limits so that would not apply, also exempt as born dual. Have been doing US taxes myself for many years, but really fully canadian and no ties to USA. A flight somewhere will be cheaper than accountancy fees for another year of US returns.
I tried a location in mexico and got no response. 2nd location in canada was initially sounding hopefully, but in the end has also gone quiet.
Should i try more locations?
Does trying more locations cause any issues?
@ JustGet It Done,
There’s 4 others here — Halifax, Québec, Montréal, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver. I recall that this Spring, Halifax was booking relatively quickly, less than two months, while Toronto and Ottawa were closer to a year at that time. Québec City doesn’t seem to get much traffic – I only know of 1 person who renounced there – so they may be relatively quick.
Krackerjack used Tijuana, Mexico, last fall (see Consulate Report Directory), and got an appointment within two weeks. Maybe try them?
Could you let us know at which consulate and which month in 2016 you booked at — and what month the other one offered? We keep stats (month/year) of wait times in the Consulate Report Directory. Thanks.
It generally is not a problem. The consulates are supposed to accept people from anywhere. I’ve seen confirmation of that from Dept of State, Legal Affairs, in Washington.
But occasionally we’ve heard of a consulate not taking persons from outside their consular district. As it could be a major hassle to fly somewhere and find out the consulate won’t take you, I’d want to be sure that they know where I lived beforehand to avoid the potential of dealing with that. Generally it’s not a problem,however, and quite a few of us have used other consulates.
@ justgetitdone
Someone got an appointment in Tijuana Mex last year without a prob. You can email Edinburgh Scotland or Luxembourg if you can fit a European trip. They were relatively open. No issues, it is your right to go anywhere but some embassies are so busy they are only taking residents of their country. Email first and ask.
@JustGetItDone,
I agree with Pacifica and would try all the US Consulates in Canada first (and report here your findings on wait times if you will). If no luck, you may want to discuss with Krackerjack, another Canadian who just wanted to *get it done*:
Thanks for the hints.
I was a bit concerned that bothering several posts might be a adversely effect getting an appointment.
It seems you need to send in a lot of information before getting an appointment or even any idea when it might be possible, and so where i live will be apparent. I have been trying by email as it seems phone contact for appointments is not offered in many posts. This is what i know…
Montreal – tried via email. Only got auto-response email with nothing relevant to renouncing
Halifax – i had tried there, and had some correspondence, but it has now been sitting. They would get back once they reviewed documents. Have not heard since june. Sent reminder. No response.
Mexico Merida – no response, over 1 week, might try phone or other posts if canada does not work out.
Quebec, just sent email as suggested by @pacifica777
Ottawa – earlier this month, was offered mar 2016. i sent email to confirm this but heard nothing after that, but still hope to find 2015 date instead.
JustGetItDone,
Keep trying wherever you can — though distressing that this is slow as molasses for you (…and others!). Further indication of the real foot-dragging going on.
Why not continue to do taxes yourself? It’s worked for you for many years. No taxes owing means little scrutiny.
quebec – not processing now, will process local district first, check back later in the year
I wonder if they have made some sort of policy change to do renunciations late in the year, perhaps after tax has been filed. I think one of the others also said wait to later in the year.
@Duke of Devon – i wasted about a man month trying to figure out forms for investments i had not used before, lots was unclear and subject to interpretation. They became a lot more complex than before, and threats for errors seem a lot more. In the end i realized that it might better be done by pro, and they might have more practical info and better software tools to handle complex calculations.
@ JustGetThisDone,
Re: A consulate closes booking and tells you to write back in X months.
You wrote, “I wonder if they have made some sort of policy change to do renunciations late in the year, perhaps after tax has been filed. I think one of the others also said wait to later in the year.”
I don’t think that they’re doing this delaying specifically to coincide with after tax filing time or to force people in one more year of tax filing, because it happens throughout the year, though with such long delays, pushing people into an extra year of tax filing is very, very often the end result. It’s definitely got worse since we started tracking 3-1/2 years ago.
The consulates I’m aware of that have done/are doing this – told people we’re not booking now, write us again in X months — are Vancouver, Ottawa and now Québec. I can’t recall if Toronto’s done this or not (Toronto was quite speedy about booking (and generally great to deal with) up til 2014 but they changed things that year). I don’t recall this “we’re not booking now, write us again in X months” occurring in other countries. Anyone know of any other consulates that have told people this?
Thanks so much, JustGetThisDone, for your reports on the consulates’ replies re bookings. I’ll note them in each consulate’s section of this month’s edition of the Directory, which should be out soon.
I hope you get a 2015 booking soon – hopefully not too far a trip or at a place where you can combine it with a vacation (you’ll sure have reason to celebrate!)
I have an appointment at the Montreal consulate in late September. I’ve requested relinquishment based on acquiring Canadian Citizenship in 1974.
In April 2015, after the Embassy in Ottawa where I live asked that I not submit anything at this time and that I write again in September 2015, I wrote the Montreal consulate – montreal-ACS@state.gov. I also wrote Toronto the same day, and received a reply to send in the forms but no information about a possible date. I chose to continue to follow through with Montreal as it’s closer to home.
The first email from Montreal which I received immediately was a hard to understand message. I couldn’t quite make out what to do. However, on the next business day, I received a detailed email from the Montreal Consulate with instructions to fill out the forms and then an appointment would be booked. The instructions were quite detailed including information on which forms to fill in and what to bring to the interview.
I did take some time to put together the forms and screw up my courage to send them in. I submitted them at the end of July and within 6 business days had a reply with an offer of an appointment towards the end of September. I was asked to accept or decline that appointment within 3 business days.
Basically, from submitting the forms to my scheduled appointment will be about 9 weeks. I had no indication that contacting multiple posts was an issue. Remember as well that I am applying for recognition of relinquishment – that might have contributed to the speediness with which I received my appointment (although I have no reason to believe it affected anything).
I will write a full report once this is all over!
@justgetitdone I have been dealing with a real person in Montreal. Perhaps the moderator would be so kind as to connect me to you directly so I can give you their email address and name. I’m hesitant to publish it here given privacy considerations.
I’m aware of at least two times last year (2014) that Toronto was not accepting requests for appointments. One affected me. The other was posted here. Some times when they open a window for appointments it closes again very quickly. So if they say, try again in early November, get your documents into the them on November 1. By November 6 it may be too late.
On the other hand, when I did send mine in at 12:01am on November 1, I was given an appointment for March although when they refused to book me they said they were booked up through May and would be booking June, July and August when the window opened in early November. My guess is I got in on a cancellation. It would have been oh so nice if they used the outrageous renunciation fees they are collecting to hire enough help to do the job in a timely manner.
I’d be glad to do so, Proud Canadian. JustGetItDone, if you want to do that, you can send me a working email address at calgaryfouroneone@gmail.com.
@ Justgetitdone,
Last year when they announced that they were increasing the fees from 450 to 2350. I elected to see if I could figure out a place to do my renunciation before the fees increased. So if I remember correctly I ended up emailing every consulate in Mexico, I did a few in the Caribbean as well. Most of the ones got back to me with in a couple of days. Bermuda flat our refused to provide services for me, saying that it was only for Bermudian residents, but that was better than flying there to find out that they could not help me. The consulate in the Bahamas was very helpful and I had initially set up an appointment with them. In the end I elected to go with the one in Tijuana as it was much easier for me to get down there then it was to get to Nassau.
You had mentioned that you had some concerns about contacting multiple consulates. When I was trying to book an appointment I contacted probably 10-15 of them. I never had any indication that this caused any issues. If it did it is news to me. I would suggest contacting anyone of them to see who can help you out. I contacted them all by email. The consulate in Tijuana actually let me do a phone interview with them and then do the renunciation interview when I got done to Tijuana.
If you would like to discuss this more. I would be willing to answer any questions you may have. Calgary411 has my contact info and has my permission to pass that along to you if you are interested in further communication.
Cheers,
krackerjack121
Email is on its way to you, Proud Canadian.
@, RLee,
Thanks for the info about Toronto. I thought I’d read that Toronto suspended booking periodically but didn’t recall for sure – now that I see your comment, I do remember reading your post back then.
I think you’re giving *really* good advice about when a consulate tells you when the booking
“window” is next going to open, it may close again very quickly, so get your e-mail to them asap – as you put it, if they say early November, do it November 1st, not November 6th.
@ Proud Canadian,
Great to hear that you have set up an appt quickly with Montréal and that the wait time for the appt is not outrageous (that is, it’s longer than I think it should be (or would be if I ran things, ha) but it’s definitely good compared to several other consulates here these days). Also great that you’re dealing with a real person, and have offered to provide JustGetItDone with the contact info. Thanks for sharing your good news and info.
@ Krackerjack,
And likewise, thanks, as always, for sharing your tips and experience on renouncing outside one’s consular district.
When you need to travel to the US and your CLN’s in limbo:
http://tax-expatriation.com/2015/08/15/part-ii-u-s-department-of-state-has-allowed-starting-in-at-least-2013-uscs-to-keep-their-u-s-passports-after-oath-and-prior-to-receiving-cln/
A recent comment/update re the issue of the US consulates taking US passports at the renunciation appointment, and the issue of travel to/through the US prior to receiving the CLN (often delayed by months if not longer).”
August 16, 2015 at 12:24 am
“…. I believe the decision to collect or not collect an individual’s passport is made on a consulate by consulate basis. Most consulates in Canada will collect the individual’s passport if it hasn’t expired (they allow the individual to keep expired ones). The individual receives it back (stamped and punched “invalid”) with the CLN.”
http://tax-expatriation.com/2015/08/15/part-ii-u-s-department-of-state-has-allowed-starting-in-at-least-2013-uscs-to-keep-their-u-s-passports-after-oath-and-prior-to-receiving-cln/comment-page-1/#comment-7481
Is form 8833 needed for a defined benefit pension plan?
I emailed the consulate in Toronto to confirm the instructions I was given when they took my passport at my renunciation appointment. I was told to use my Canadian Passport and explain the situation if I travelled to the U.S. before receiving my CLN. I now have a reply from the Consulate which confirms my “application” is still in process in Washington, D.C. and they will notify me as soon as my CLN is received at the Consulate. I don’t think much of characterizing my renunciation oath as an application but I’ll be happy to have this email in addition to the receipt for my fee to back up my explanation when I travel to the U.S. next month if my CLN has not arrived yet.