Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Noname, you don’t say what country you or your children live in, nor what their (or your) other citizenship is, however going on the little that I know, I would lean towards suggesting that your children NOT formally renounce their US citizenship. My fear (if I were in your or their shoes) is that to renounce US citizenship shines a light on them (more so than on you) which doesn’t need to be shone. They were not born in the USA, and as such should be able to hide their USness from their local financial institutions thus avoiding FATCA reporting.
Whitecat, thanks for your thoughts. We all live in Canada and are all Canadian citizens. One kid is a lawyer and quite consiousof the implications of perjury, not only as an act in itself, but also in terms of possible professional ramifications. She will not perjure herself, but wants to live a normal Canadian life, I.e., RESPs, TFSAs, etc. My real question concerns whether her renunciation could lead to an investigation of me. I am the only reason she has any taint of US citizenship and ours is an unusual name. Maybe I should just relax about the whole thing. I have no intention of complying, but opening up a door to them is still a pretty scary thing.
Even if your children decide to renounce, I would (if in your shoes), not let that change your plans too much other than to consider where to do your banking and investing. I think it is a stretch to suggest that their renunciation will somehow lead to you being discovered by the IRS.
However, what I would do if I were you is to make sure that I dealt with DIFFERENT FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS than your children. If your lawyer daughter/son should tell her/his FFI that she is a US citizen or was a US citizen, then that naturally might spawn questions directed towards YOU, if you deal with the same FFI. The same advice holds true for your non-lawyer daughter/son in the event that he/she should decide not to take the renunciation route – i,.e. don’t bank in the same bank as her/his sibling who is renouncing and who at some point may offer this bit of info up to the nice lady at the bank.
I have a consulate appointment this week any last minute advice? Anything I shouldn’t say or do? I have filed everything and believe that I have all of my papers with me a little nervous but glad to be so close to the end.
Good luck at your appointment, Almost free! The only thing I would suggest is to have another quick look through / review of all the compiled information in the Consulate Report Directory – http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/. Besides checklists for both renunciation and relinquishment, the Directory includes reports of actual expatriation experiences by persons who expatriated at various US Consulates / Embassies.
Good advice, Whitecat. Thanks.
@Almost free
Be prepared to answer the question “why?”, even if you stated you were not giving a reason for renouncing. I don’t know if saying something like “I don’t believe I have to answer that” raises a red flag – perhaps others have an opinion.
I have also heard of someone being asked “why now?”.
Good luck!
Maybe something like *I WANT TO SIMPLIFY MY LIFE!* — (i.e. this is crazy!) Why now? — *While I can afford the US renunciation fee — from $0.00 to US$450.00 to US$2,350, all within a few years.*
@almost free, also be careful of the question, “why did you leave the US?” I was asked that question and when I answered “because of the Vietnam war” I think my fate was sealed; my relinquishment was denied.
@ Almost free,
They usually don’t ask why you’ve decided to renounce, but sometimes they do, so it’s good to be ready with something short and non-controversial in case they do. You don’t have to give a reason, but it seems to me like the kind of situation where if you’re asked, things go more smoothly if you give an answer, as long as it’s short and innocuous.
I suggest having a one-liner ready, something to the effect of because your entire life has been taking place and will always take place in Canada (or whichever country it is) and you do not wish to have participation in or allegiance to more than one country, or something along those lines – such as Calgary suggested, you want to simplify your life.
If asked, “why now?” something like because you’ve come to this realisation over time as your life developed here and the US receded into the past of your life.
BTW, generally these meetings go pretty fast, like around 10 minutes face-time, most of which is signing papers and pushing papers back and forth, and they don’t generally ask much of anything (as they look over your documents before they meet with you, that pretty much clues them in to what they need to know). People often end up spending a fair bit of time in the waiting area, but the meeting itself is usually pretty short.
I was asked why and also why now. I said something along the lines of that I was Canadian and my entire life was in Canada and wanted that to be clear and simplified. When asked why now, I replied that it just seemed right to make the legal/technical side reflect the reality of my situation.
Just be forewarned – the person I dealt with tried to tell me that I was a US citizen until I got my CLN at which time I would have been not a US citizen as of the date of renunciation.
Thank you for the responses and great advice! Just going through my papers and reading the Consulate reports!! Thanks again!!
I was actually asked why I can`t keep both passports. I told him “Because I don`t need 2.”
Hi Brockers,
I recently received my CLN and, now that the process is done, wanted to share. I only have a few points to make, but wanted to contribute since I found this site helpful.
So for background, I was born dual, left the US when I was a baby, and never lived there afterwards. That may have afforded me some leniency, though of course I cant be sure.
– Even though I was born dual and work for the federal government of my country (which required an oath), I was told that I could not relinquish my citizenship. I believe the logic was that I had to have taken the oath WITH THE INTENT TO RELINQUISH MY US CITIZENSHIP. I suppose maybe due to other statements I made on my forms, I couldn’t really argue that was the case, so i paid the renunciation fee. Don’t get me wrong, I tried to argue, but to no avail.
– I also stated on the form that i had never filed taxes in the US. So far, other than receiving the CLN, I’ve heard nothing. (i think i read on this site that you can receive your CLN but still have the IRS try to come after you. I really cant see that happening in my case but will certainly update here if that occurs).
In retrospect, i probably should have been a little more careful in filling out the initial forms, perhaps i could have saved the fee. I found the embassy staff were very friendly and quite helpful, though they were also firm in their application of the rules (I know I know, its shocking to hear that bureaucrats could be so… bureaucratic in their approach).
cant think of anything else to add. Im just glad its over. Also, since I think i read this in a recent comment, I will reiterate that I was also told that, once I receive the CLN, the loss of nationality is effective as of the date of renunciation.
@melvin I, too, was told that my CLN dated to my date of renunication. That wasn;t the confusing part for me – what was confusing is that the person tried to tell me that I was still a US citizen aft I had renounced, simply because I didn’t have my CLN. So, what did that mean? For example, was I able to open a TFSA without US tax implications before I got my CLN? If I was still a US citizen, then no. But I was not. as far as I was concerned. It was though they were trying to create some state of limbo (or just cause unceertainty and confusion – there was a post on this a while back). I rejected the notion that I was still a US citizn until I got hte CLN and then somehow that woud be magically ad retroactively undone. I went home, closed all my IRS-reported bank accounts nad opened new ones and generally acted like a solely Canadian citizen.
Melvin Thanks for your post. Congrats on receiving your CLN. I suppose it’s little comfort in knowing the bureaucrats were wrong in their interpretation. The intent is supposed to be based on the preponderance of the evidence and the evidence is your subsequent actions. ( passport, assets in the US, paying taxes there and so on). Oh well, your $2350 will pay a bureaucrat for about a week.
If you feel comfortable telling us, which country and what about 8854? Since you were born dual you are not subject to the exit tax.
@Iamfree,
I think it’s more meaningful to say that you are still a US citizen after renunciation until the renunciation is approved by the Department of State in Washington DC. At that time, they issue a CLN but the key is the approval, not the certificate. In other words, in their minds, you’re a USC until they tell you you’re not.
WhatAmI,
How would a renunciation not be approved in Washington, DC — unless the person who went through the process was proved to not have sufficient capacity to understand the concept of citizenship or it was proven that they were somehow coerced into renouncing — as they are not to have the influence of anyone in making that decision? You’ve paid your dearly scraped together US$2,350 and have a receipt from the US Consulate at which you took your oath and gave your signature and that fee is non-refundable. Man, that would just be more US theft.
One more piece of advice for anyone about to pay their renunciation fee. If you pay in local currency be prepared to be charged an outrageous exchange fee as if the renunciation fee were not outrageous enough. I took U.S. cash just in case their credit card system was down having heard of this happening to someone else. But I noticed their exchange rate on the Canadian dollar was significantly out of line (in their favour of course) with what the banks would use. And I know the banks give the U.S. government a better rate than I as an individual client am given.
@iamfree – I think I treated the post-renunciation period just like you. To me, I’d fulfilled my obligations and was no longer a US person. I wasn’t going to wait for DOS to agree with me. In theory, they can deny renunciation if they think its solely to escape tax obligations, but I didn’t think there was much risk of that in my case.
@DukeofDevon – I’m Canadian. I filled out the 8854 when I renounced. I was honest in indicating that I had never filed in the US and filled out the form accordingly. Not sure if that’s a good idea for everyone, but given that I had never lived in the US I didn’t think I would be in any hot water because of it.
Also, I actually only paid the $450 renunciation fee. The embassy (I wont say which one cause I dont wanna get anyone in trouble) was nice enough to call everyone who had appointments booked and advise us to come in and pre-pay the fee. IE my actual appointment was very shortly after the fee was set to increase, but they called everyone who had their appointments already scheduled to advise us to come in early so we could pay the current fee, and just bring the receipt in to the actual renunciation appointment. I give them top marks for that, cause obviously they didn’t have to alert us like that.
Im not sure I would have renounced at the current price.
Melvin. They can’t denie renunciation unless they believe the person is incompetent or under duress. Taxes are not supposed to be mentioned. When you said you filled out form 8854 at the time of renunciation, did you mean form 4079 ‘request for determination of possible loss of citizenship’?
I asked about 8854 because some renunciants are not filing it . Some are. I don’t know if you are comfortable talking about it.
@Duke of Devon
Did you receive my email about change in court proceeding and attendance? Please see Stephen Kish post on Federal Court proceeding FATCA/IGA lawsuit on August 4-5.
patcanadian2015@gmail.com
@Duke
yeah I meant the 8854. it was part of the sheaf of papers I filled out when I renounced. So I did file it, however since I’d already told them I never filed taxes in the US, I left some of the items blank (for instance, where you put the 5 years of previous income to ‘prove’ your tax compliance). Again, not recommending that for everyone, but in my case I thought it was fine
Melvin. . You will now be a covered expatriate. It remains to be seen what that means. Probably nothing at all. Good luck.
@Duke of Devon, why? He’s filed the 8854 so fulfilled his obligations and if he doesn’t meet the other filing requirements then theoretically he’s not a covered expat.