Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Allou You have it backwards. There is no need to be compliant before you renounce. They never acknowledge filings so there is no real way to know that you are compliant. You are compliant when you say you are.
In fact you can renounce , get a CLN and not bother filing if you choose to do so. After all, what are they going to do about it?
@ Allou,
KalC is right in both paragraphs, as I see it.
Specifically regarding the first paragraph, if you wish to wrap things up neatly with IRS, you absolutely can still renounce first and then backfile with IRS.
If you renounce this year, you have until June 15th, 2014, to file your 8854, on which you certify that you have been in tax compliance for the previous five years.
DoS doesn’t ask or care if a person is filing or not. You are right, though, that they send a copy of each approved CLN to IRS. 7 FAM 1243(b)
@Allou, I’ve already renounced and am sorting out the tax side now so it really doesn’t matter which way around you do it. Whichever gives you the most peace of mind really. If you prefer to do the paperwork first, then do that. If not, then renounce and do it after. You could even start sorting out the filing while you’re going through the renunciation process. So long as everything has been done ready for your final filing in 2014 you’re good.
@Medea Fleecestealer,
I don’t have a piece of mind listing how much I’m supposed to be worth. It is stupid, especially considering that I’m worth so little. It’s like being a slave figuring out how to buy freedom. It shouldn’t be a big deal, but since I’ve been rather public and critical of many things, including taxes, it is always possible that someone in the US might want to give me a hard time. Anyways, I’ll try to do it the way they want it and then we can see how that worked out.:)
Hi fellow Brockers,
Am in need of some advice. It’s a long shot but I’m going to try to get a backdated CLN.
Here’s my info:
– born in US. One US parent (deceased)
– left when I was 2 1/2
– Grew up in UK
– Acquired UK citizenship AFTER age of 18 (famous expatriating act), in 1994
– Didn’t apply for CLN at the time; didn’t know they existed, but for me there was no doubt I was dumping one nationality for another. I’m a Brit through and through and have no connections with the US except an aunt.
BUT
– when I got married in Paris, in 1998, the French in their wisdom asked me to provide a “pièce d’identité” in my nationality of birth. So I renewed my long-expired US passport (!)
SO
– Travelled to US on UK passport in 2001. I think I may have gone to the UK on this US passport once after mislaying the UK one, but that’s all. It has, of course, expired and has not been renewed.
– Never voted in US, never paid taxes, never studied there, never worked there
Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed and what my chances might be?
Thanks so much for any remarks.
These might help:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/did-you-relinquish-before-february-6-1995-then-you-did-not-have-to-inform-the-state-department/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
You might have a good chance, but the application for and use of the passport might cause problems. The main thing is going to be proving that you acquired UK citizenship with the intent of losing the US one. Have a read here too:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/12/relinquish-dont-renounce-if-you-can/
@Lyoba:
Agreeing with Medea—since you renewed your US passport after obtaining UK citizenship, the state department is likely to determine that you intended to keep US citizenship after obtaining UK citizenship and remain a dual national.
@KalC, Pacifica777, Medea Fleecestealer – Thanks for the feedback. I have done the paperwork and sent it off, so it is just a question of taking a very deep breath and then – next step. I must stop having horror thoughts about penalities for my ordinary accounts. Sun’s shining, birds singing and a doe and her kid tiptoe in the dewy early morning garden in the – lovely.
Thanks, allou, for pointing out the beauty of your day. May we all, one day, be able to fully give our attention to being grateful for all the blessings in our lives — without this distraction.
I am grateful that I no longer reside or am a citizen of the US. What a sad commentary.
In the meantime, enjoy those special moments you find.
@RMA, Medea and Lyoba,
Unfortunately, I agree the DOS will probably determine you intended to retain your US citizenship. But, give it your full fight before renunciation and all that goes with that. Good luck, Lyoba! Let us know how you’re doing with this.
@allou
I’ve got to ask: did you eventually go Streamlined with 3 returns, or did you file 5 (or 6) returns and not go Streamlined?
@tdott – 2006-2012 for tax and fbars. 2 sleep deprived months of anxiety, research and priceless support fra IBS – which I chanced upon in my desperate early info searching . Have also read lots of other sources. Numerous calls to IRS helplines – absolutely no U.S. tax compliance experts where I live. Spent $700 on online tax assistance and subsequently realized that I knew as much as the expert (about my particular, straightforward situation) after having read through so much. Wish me luck and good luck to you!
@allou
Thanks for the response, and I imagine I speak for all of us in wishing you nothing but the best of luck in this!
I intend to go a similar route (5-6 years) as soon as I find someone to do the returns.
Sorry to bother with one last question: why did you do 7 years of returns and not 6? 6 seems to be the “magic number” for getting compliant outside of Streamlined.
6 yrs back=2006-2011 + current year 2012
My accountant also wants from 2006 to 2012 plus the final filing of 2013 next year.
But I think I know why the US introduced the $450 fee for renunciations. Read this and then extrapolate:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22708711
(wink) Only kidding, Mr. ex-President.
Hi Guys, finally got a call from the US/NZ consulate. They don’t seem to make a distinction between relinquishing and renouncing. I was quite specific in my email tot hem that I want to relinquish based on my actions in 2008. In 2008 I became a NZ citizen and pledge my allegiance to New Zealand. On the phone he kept saying there’s no difference between relinquishing or renouncing. He then said information will be sent to me. I just got the email:
———————————
Dear Mr. xxxxxx
Per our conversation, attached are some of the documents that will be involved in a citizenship renunciation action. Please review them, and, if you decide to move forward with your proposed renunciation, fill them out, but do not sign them. You will then need to contact the ACS section (09-303-2724, ext 2800) to set up a date and time to come to the U.S. Consulate to formally renounce your citizenship. You will need to bring two completed copies of the attached documents, as well as pay a fee of $450 ($585 NZ).
I have also included a link to a pamphlet that discusses the renunciation process and how it may affect you. Though we discussed this during our phone conversation, I would ask that you pay specific attention to paragraphs D and E of this document, which relate to how relinquishing your citizenship affects your ability to travel to the United States, as well as affects your tax liability.
Feel free to contact us if you have any additional question.
Sincerely,
———————————
The guy seemed quite taken aback that I want to renounce, a lot of sighs and ermm & arrr ing. I am not sure why I could not get anywhere on the relinquishing front. What can I do to make my case to them for relinquishing? I told them in 2008 I became a citizen of NZ and pledged my allegience which enabled me for relinquishment but at the time I was unaware I had to formally declare that. Since then I have not used a US passport or filed taxes or voted in a US election etc. I said I have spoken to expats in Canada that relinquished not renounced. I felt that the embassy here would be accomodating to citizens requiring help but if you want to renounce then I am a burden and not really given proper assistance. I won’t judge them yet but this could all be very costly to me. I would have to fly to Auckland from Dunedin and pay $500. Not sure what to do, should I press them that I can relinquish and provide them detail of how I can do this? I believe relinquishing is a cleaner break but am worried they will not accommodate me or become hostile if I push the matter.
I also wanted to add that he said my 10yr old NZ daughter can’t travel to the US without a US passport and that she could not renounce until 18yrs old. I found that bizarre! She was born in NZ, has always only had a NZ passport and has always traveled to the US on her NZ passport. Are they saying my NZ daughter is considered a US citizen by default? That’s just insane.
I spoke with with the IRS yesterday. The branch in Germany was busy, so I called the US and waited 45 minutes until I heard a voice.
I asked if I need a TIN, if I must report my status to the US property management company I use, how withholding works, how to file 1040NR, etc. Total length of the call was 1:08:53, total cost: $0.689 + 1 min to Germany: $0.0256.
I explained my situation, stating that I had renounced. The Agent was friendly and helpful. Last year, I filed my first and last FBAR ever for 2011 with no note attached, and 2012 is the first time ever that I filed Schedule A (I believe) with the foreign account flag marked.
So, my first communication with the US government since renouncing went well. 🙂
PK It is well documented here:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
If the answer to the question regarding intent to relinquish citizenship is yes, the person concerned will be asked to complete a questionnaire to ascertain his or her intent toward U.S. citizenship. When the questionnaire is completed and the voluntary relinquishment statement is signed, the consular officer will proceed to prepare a certificate of loss of nationality. The certificate will be forwarded to the Department of State for consideration and, if appropriate, approval.
An individual who has performed any of the acts made potentially expatriating by statute who wishes to lose U.S. citizenship may do so by affirming in writing to a U.S. consular officer that the act was performed with an intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship. A U.S. citizen also has the option to formally renounce U.S. citizenship abroad in accordance with Section 349 (a) (5) INA.
You have already relinquished your US citizenship. That happened when you became a Kiwi as long as you had the INTENT to give up US citizenship.
Now you want them to issue a CLN. Looks like you might have to explain the law to the guy.
Thanks Kal,
I have now relayed a lot of legal information to them and my proof that I intended to relinquish in 2008 -in hope’s they’ll play ball and accept my actions from 2008 and since as fulfilling sec349. If they do not want to play ball and say I must “renounce” what are my options? Do I get a lawyer at this point (probably something I can’t afford)? I do not want to renounce and end up with a renunciation date of 2013 when in reality I relinquished in 2008 (I just didn’t know I had to do all this nonsense). Maybe I contact the state dept. and get the required forms myself? Once I have the forms myself I can contact the consulate again and say “I have a form from the state dept. that requires you witness my signing” and go that route? Thanks
@ Pukeko
Let us know what you hear back, or if you don’t hear back in a few days or certainly within a week. If they do not come around, next step is to contact DoS HQ in Washington and they’ll clear it up. You do not need a lawyer. It’s a cut-and-dried issue.
BTW, I’m curious. Do you know the job level of the person who spoke with you? Was it the head of American Citizen Services Unit?
Here is the link to the questionnaire: DS-4079. Request for Determination of Possible Loss of US Citizenship
Links to it and the other required DoS forms are on page 6 of the Consulate Report Directory.
Other links of interest are 7FAM1210, the DoS manual on Loss and Restoration of US Citizenship.
7FAM1220 Dept of State manual for Developing a Loss-of-Nationality Case
7FAM 1250 DoS manual for Naturalization and Oath of Allegiance to a Foreign State
Regarding what the consular official told you about there being no difference between a relinquishment or a renunciation, that’s of course not true, as you know, and it’s very disturbing to hear of consular officials making incorrect statements like that. You could say that in some ways the results of a relinquishment or a renunciation are pretty much the same
One example of similarity is that the consequences of citizenship loss listed in DS-4081 apply to persons whether they renounce or relinquish.
Another is that a 2008 relinquishment clearly falls under today’s tax laws. For IRS purposes the date of expatriation would be considered the date the consulate was notified of the relinquishment. So, either way that works out to 2013.
Nevertheless, the fact remains if a person relinquished their citizenship upon naturalising with intent in 2008, the person is entitled to a CLN which reflects that reality.
There is a difference in that there is a $450 charge for a renunciation and no charge for other methods of relinquishment. [Also per 7FAM1244(a), only renunciants go on the FBI list of people who can’t buy guns or transport hazardous materials inside the US, but I suspect that’s completely irrelevant for just about everybody.]
OK, maybe I’m being cheap or petty, but if I can get out of giving the US $450 of my hard-earned Canadian income, I will.
So, does anyone know of a relatively pain-free means of making an oath of allegiance to Canada/Queen that will be accepted by the US?
Followup to above: for example, reciting the citizenship oath of allegiance and having it be formally witnessed by my MP?
@tdott –
I’ve felt for a long time that the statement of allegiance on a Canadian adult passport application could serve as an expatriating act, if there was no subsequent attempt to assert US nationality.
It’s untested, though –
@Broken man
Just took a look at the passport application (for those who never had a passport). I don’t see an oath/statement of allegiance. Instead I see
So, unless I’m missing something, it won’t do. 🙁