Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Duni, I second what @Polly writes…….
Applying for a USA Passport after the relinquishing act is the kiss of death to the relinquishment.
I posted my question this morning for a friend. A dual at birth who has recently taken an office with a political subdivision.
I recommended that they first notify the consulate in writing that they were going to do the act and voluntarily relinquish, CHECK.
Then they notified the consulate immediately after doing the act in writing and again with mailing receipts, check.
No the consulate is playing games on appointment dates…….
I appreciate Mediafleecestar and I think my only slight difference is that I may suggest they apply for an ESTA to be on record of applying and then present both passports when they cross. They will NOT be denied entry.
But if this persons had expired, I would NOT recommend a new application as thats the kiss of death.
@Duni, I do remember what RLee just wrote but you would need to have a convincing argument.
The other problem is that if you are saying you relinquished by naturalisation on lets say January 2010, but applied for a US Passport on July 2011, how did you apply and not disclose that you had naturalised because thats a passport question!!
@George RE: someone needing to travel to the U.S. after a relinquishing act but before their appointment to document same
I would suggest they proceed with their travel plans on the basis that they are a citizen of their still current nationality but carry their U.S. passport and the email or other proof of their appointment to document their relinquishment — maybe copies of the entire paper trail they have created. I would not present my U.S. passport unless told to do so.
I remember that case too. The person was basically forced into getting an american passport because the authorities told him or her that they needed it to travel within the United States. One would need that evidence of having been “forced” into getting the US passport – proof of having been intimidated into the act – in order for a relinquishment to be plausible.
@Polly I’m not at all sure they had proof. But clearly they were convincing. Perhaps they were able to show they always used their other passport for other travel. That was one of the questions on the questionnaire I had to fill out to get an appointment.
@duni. If you think you should be entitled to relinquish and you feel comfortable with the delay you lose nothing but time as I understand it by trying to go that route first. If you are turned down by the state department you can then proceed to renounce. It depends on the details as I said before. Know that the state department seems to take a long time with such requests.
@George RE: someone needing to travel to the U.S. after a relinquishing act but before their appointment to document same… this is my interpretation as someone who has relinquished.
If they have relinquished I would think they should NOT use their US passport, even if they have not had their appointment. Do they have another passport? Form DS 4079 clearly asks the question whether they have used a US passport since their relinquishing act. If they have, it sets them up for trouble and the State Department can come back and say “we deny your relinquishment based on the fact you acted as a US citizen after you say you relinquished.” While he/she is still considered a US person for TAX PURPOSES until they confirm their relinquishment before the Consulate, how they act between their relinquishment and their appointment demonstrates their intent. If they avail themselves of ANY privilege of US citizenship, it could be denied. The relinquishing act has already happened, it is only the official confirmation that is pending — they are voluntarily no longer a US citizen. If they have a passport of another nationality, they should use that one. If they have a US birth place and get questioned at the border, they should have paper proof of the consulate emails wherein they have declared their intent to confirm relinquishment and the date of the appointment. I seriously doubt they would be denied entry given they have proof they have already informed the Consulate they no longer consider themselves a US citizen. Intent is paramount. Use of a US passport can cancel out the intent argument.
Hello, can anyone tell me what the State Department does between your renunciation appointment and issuing your CLN? Is there an approval process they must go through and if so what does it involve? Are they running background checks or contacting people before they issue the CLN? Are other federal, state and local government agencies contacted? My main concern is that the U.S. government seems to have a hard time keeping data and information secure. Although I know officially must appear on the “name and shame” list at some point, I would like to keep my upcoming renunciation as low key as possible and keep the amount of information the U.S. government has on me as minimal as possible going forward. Who knows what could eventually happen if the data collected during the renouncing process were to be compromised.
Lastly does anyone know about debts left behind in the United States when renouncing? I still have student loans (which I am still paying on). How, if at all, will they and other debts like credit cards, be affected by giving up citizenship?
@awol,
State reports CLN issuance to DHS/USCIS, FBI and IRS.
Here’s the Interagency Coordination details: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/113465.pdf
@awol,
Yes, it does have to be approved in Washington, but they put a lot of weight on the consulate officer’s report. So, in the case of a positive recommendation from the consulate officer, the approval is pretty much a rubber stamp. Most of the consulates have you send in your forms and scans of your supporting documents prior to your consulate meeting. They try to frontload the process, in that if the file is problematic/missing supporting documents/etc, they generally try to straighten that out with you at the consulate level before proceeding, and if everything’s in order, you do the renunciation and the consul sends your file to DC with a positive rec.
RE: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/113465.pdf (originally posted by pacifica777)
Wow! Who knew that as a renuncient, it’s illegal to transport hazardous materials?
In the case of renunciation as opposed to relinquishment, they have no choice but to approve. It is your right. They don’t consult anyone else. They will inform homeland security and IRS
@RLee: yeah, they copied the list of ineligibilities from the Gun Control Act of 1968. Renunciants (and dishonorable dischargees and people found mentally ill) ended up in there because of an amendment by Huey Long’s kid, which he moved in response to erroneous reports that Lee Harvey Oswald had renounced citizenship.
@awol, Duke of Devon is quite right. If it’s a renunciation as opposed to a relinquishment the State Department has to approve it. You’ve stood before the Consul an American embassy/consulate and sworn an oath that you know what you’re doing and do want to give up your citizenship. Once that is done you’re no longer an American citizen no matter how long it takes the State Department to issue the CLN.
As for any debts, well loss of citizenship will make no difference to those as far as I know. You still need to pay them off whether you’re a citizen or not. You owe the money and citizenship doesn’t come into the equation, why should it? I have Swiss credit cards even though I’m British, does that mean I don’t need to pay them off just because I return to live in the UK? No. I still owe the money and the debts have to be paid.
Oh man- I heard an amazing renouncement story today. Seems this lady knew somebody who renounced about 5 years ago, and the US embassy asked him to get a PSYCHIATRIC EVALUATION for wanting to do so!
@ Polly – Was the embassy willing to cover the psychiatric assessment bill? I mean, if they want it, shouldn’t they pay for it? LOL (tho really a horrifying story!)
@Eric – LOL I suppose I’ll have to check my vehicle for hazardous substances such as wiper-fluid and anti-freeze before crossing the border next time.
I’ve been reading posts from earlier this year which assert that you do not have to have your tax filings up to date to renounce. I have no doubt this is technically true BUT people might like to know in advance that you ARE asked whether you file U.S. tax returns on form DS4709 (Loss of Nationality Questionnaire) which the consulate required I complete and submit along with my request for an appointment. I had filed for the previous 5 years when I requested my appointment so I had no problem with this question and do not know whether a negative answer would have caused me any.
@LM
The lady just told me there was some fuss about it. Like they possibly were going to deny him the service because he must be crazy or something- needed the evaluation first- and he might have gotten a lawyer involved. I don`t know the exact details, but it happened in Switzerland.
George, I never got asked that question
RLee,
Form 4079, “Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship” is used to determine if a person could claim relinquishment by voluntarily having performed an act designated by U.S. statute, doing so with the intent to relinquish US citizenship. If a person had been filing US tax returns, (generally) that would disallow a claim to relinquishment and one would have to renounce instead (and pay the US$2,350.00 fee).
WhatAmI in http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciation/comment-page-128/#comment-2495435 reports that the Calgary US Consulate didn’t use that form until recently for relinquishments. They had their own questionnaire that was sent when requesting an appointment, different than other Consulates. My husband and I had filled out Form 4079 for our 2012 renunciation through the Calgary Consulate — they didn’t even look at it. It was though, a good exercise to go through by answering all the questions in anticipation of what might be asked during our renunciation appointment.
As well, it sounds that perhaps the process for expatriation, whether a claim to relinquishment or the now very, very costly renunciation, from one consulate to another is more consistent than it previously was.
Polly and LM,
DOS has regulations that cover various circumstances where requirements for renunciation are questionable: 7 FAM 1290 – MINORS, INCOMPETENTS, PRISONERS, PLEA BARGAINS, CULTS AND OTHER SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES (7 FAM 1293 MENTAL COMPETENCY, part of that, is the same that disallows my son’s renunciation), http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120538.pdf. If there is a question that the person does not meet the DOS requirements for a renunciation, some kind of assessment would likely be required, over and above the assistance of a lawyer.
@calgary411 – Yes it’s clear that Form 4079 was created to determine if a person had previously lost their nationality but inthe fall of 2014 the Toronto consulate required me to complete it in order to get an appointment even though I had clearly stated I was requesting an appointment to renounce not relinquish. I believe that is SOP there or at least it was 8 months ago.
I will also note here that because it was clearly intended for a different purpose I stated on the first page that I was intending to initiate renunciation of my U.S. citizenship and took advantage of every comment section to make sure no bureaucrat would misinterpret as I had read here on Brock of someone having their request misinterpreted and therefore denied because that form was included.
I think that might be the SOP for all US consulates now — maybe a *just in case* — more than actually needed.
A person will not (or should not) be asked about their present US tax compliance for a renunciation. You have the year following with extensions to file all required US tax returns and certify that you have done so with Form 8854. (To not file that 8854 is one way to be deemed a *Covered Expatriate* — a decision not to certify with 8854 must be well thought-out if one needs to or plans to cross the US border in their future.)
@RLee & calgary411, form DS 4079 is used for relinquishments and yes the taxation issue is one of the questions. But the answers for the whole form will be used to determine whether or not you actually relinquished which is why it’s advisable not to do the obvious like voting in US elections, etc, after you’ve committed the relinquishing act. Given that, unless your relinquishment was before 2004, you’re supposed to clear your US tax obligations to file the 8854 form anyway the tax question shouldn’t really carry that much weight.
For a renunciation it’s totally different. I could file my US tax return, even vote in a US election the day before my renunciation appointment at the embassy and it wouldn’t matter. I have made the decision to renounce and no one can deny me that right. Use of the 4079 is a waste of everyone’s time because it’s irrelevant for a renuncation, the questions can have no bearing whatsoever on it. If I stand up in front of the Consul and swear the Oath of Renuncation that’s it, nothing on any other paperwork can affect it.
Why the Canadian embassies/consulates still use it for a renunciation is beyond me. I can only think it’s just another deterrent tactic to put people off trying to renounce.
As far as I heard, he was a teacher with a swiss wife. So no suspicions of mental lunacy involved, except perhaps as perceived by homelander mentality! ( LOL- then you wonder who should be psychiatrically assessed?)