Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@TheMom
Can you or anybody find that post? I didn’t see it. That’s incredible. That would be a complete game-changer.
WhatAmI and TheMom,
I think this is the comment: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/did-you-relinquish-before-february-6-1995-then-you-did-not-have-to-inform-the-state-department/comment-page-10/#comment-6091502
@Calgary411…thanks.
I did read that, but my interpretation of the post was that @Renee naturalized as an adult in 1991 and simply claimed relinquishment based on that as so many Brockers have. I asked here for clarification in the other thread.
The laws and FAM are clear that an expatriating act must change a person’s status as a citizen with respect to that country. While applying for a Regustration of Birth Abroad arguably might, simply getting a certificate of a past naturalization certainly does not.
Let’s see what @Renee says.
Important to have clarified. Thanks, WhatAmI! (or, perhaps it is a different comment, the Mom?)
I too would use caution in interpreting what Renée’s relinquishment was based on.
She posted about receiving her CLN, on the thread which deals with the possibility of a citizenship card application and oath by a person-born-dual as a relinquishing act, but she didn’t mention that she had done so or that she was born dual.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/01/21/possible-relinquishment-route-for-cln-for-some-duals-at-birth-in-canada/#comments
Because she posted on that thread, Schubert asked her if he understood correctly that she successfully claimed a relinquishment based on a citizenship card application and oath. But when she replied, she didn’t mention anything about a citizenship card application or oath or that she was born dual.
Perhaps we’ll hear more from her. Were the relinquishment based on a citizenship card application and oath, that certainly would be major news! I haven’t been too hopeful about this as a possible ground for relinquishment (due to the change of status requirement which WhatAmI mentioned), but I’d be delighted to be proved wrong.
But for now, I’m left with the impression that Renée’s was a standard naturalisation relinquishment. If so, that’s not the big breakthrough, but whatever, I’m happy for you, Renée, and thanks for sharing your good news and information!
Thanks to all for their helpful responses. I am currently in the process of setting up my RRSPs and my bank is looking for clarification as to my citizenship status.
I did swear an oath to Canada as a 14 year old when I naturalized and I did receive a certificate of citizenship.
Another question I have is: what happens if my relinquishment application is denied by the consulate? Am I suddenly on the IRS’s radar? Does this mean that they have determined definitively that I am a US citizen? This is a very scary thought and I am very hesitant to proceed with this!
I was also a government employee, but I was 17 at the time so I don’t think this is an option for me. Very unfortunate.
@Deep, no you won’t be on the IRS’s radar. The State Department doesn’t inform them of people who’ve applied for and have been denied a relinquishment. But yes, if the application is refused then as far as the US is concerned you are still an American citizen. If your application for a relinquishment isn’t accepted then the only course open to you is to renounce if your bank is looking for clarification of your status and you wish to lose the American citizenship. That will put you on the IRS’s radar as copies of all CLN’s issued are sent to them by the State Dept. Whether or not you then tackle the US tax side I’ll leave to others to advise you. Much will depend on what your bank wants from you. Here in Switzerland some banks have not only wanted a copy of a CLN but also recent copies of US tax filings to make sure you’re US tax compliant up to your relinquishment/renunciation date. I don’t think the Canadian banks are going that far at the moment though, but it is something to keep in mind.
@The Deep, first you need to look at and print out the law as it stands today. You will see that the law today would NOT provide for your relinquishment;
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
But the law did not look like that when 1.) you were naturalised 2.) you swore an oath 3.) You worked for the government.
The three items above are all potentially expatriating acts.
When did the actual law change to provide for expatriation WITHOUT the age 18 requirement? November 14, 1986. The actual change in law is found on page of this document;
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg3655.pdf
So when you look at the above two references you can determine what the law actually stated when you did it.
So far, you are in reasonable shape…….
(continued)
@The Deep, ” I am currently in the process of setting up my RRSPs and my bank is looking for clarification as to my citizenship status.”
The bank is acting Ultra Vires in two regards.
1.) If they are asking for place of birth that is not required by CRA and is posted on their FATCA information page.
2.) RRSP accounts are excluded from FATCA reporting so your citizenship is moot. The only question should be if you are resident in Canada.
It is LIKELY you will need to now need to go to another FFI to open an account being better prepared, sorry to tell you that.
(continued)
@The Deep, you must ask yourself having now refreshed your memory as to what the law was back in 1973 when you were 14…………..
Was it your voluntarily intent and did you do so without pressure, become a Canadian Citizen with the intention of relinquishing your US Citizenship?
If YES, you are NOT a US Citizen……….
If you are not a US Citizen, you must never state that you are a USC!!!!!
You can go to a FFI and on the question Are you a US Citizen? then you can rightfully answer NO.
Place of birth is another can of worms, a discriminatory can of worms that FFIs are not required to ask…. In my country, I literally get very loud and tell them vocally this is discriminatory and then ask if they would like to know with whom or what I sleep with.
(continued)
@The Deep, so what do you do about documentation as you indicated that you wanted to apply for a CLN.
A CLN is NOT required under law. On this board is a link to a report from Congress indicating same. But a CLN is a nice document to have and in some countries is needed. If a person can easily get a CLN based on their circumsatnces they should get one.
Right now today, you believe that you have relinquished, you have done nothing to disprove that and you can rightfully answer no to being a USC.
IF you apply for a CLN and are denied, then you have been administratively determined to be a US Citizen!!! Your sole option will then be to renounce, pay the renouncing fee and then become compliant with FBARs and 1040s for six an three years. If you are determined to have not relinquished on application, you can NOT go back into the shadows.
But…..it is likely that you have not been ratted out by being turned down…..however you must then answer USC question as YES and eventually you will get letters from down south.
But documentation is good to have and needed in this day of age….
At a minimum, you need to go in front of a lawyer and make a statutory decleration or affadavit of what you did in 1973, that it was your intent to voluntarily relinquish, that you have never since carried a US Passport.
Will it be hard to get a pre age 18 CLN? Yes, it will likely be difficult because you will need to prove that you had the requisite maturity to make such a “tragic decision.”
Right now, you are not a US Citizen and you can swear an affidavit in Canada before a Canadian Official to that effect. The IGA states “reasonable explanations” are acceptable in lieu of a CLN. Actually, your status is in the majority of people in Canada…..
Deep. Tell them you are Canadian. If they ask you to sign a w8ben. ( a U.S. form used by banks to certify you are not a U.S. person), feel free to do so. If they ask where you were born, say none of your business or make it up. My mother-in-law told her kids “only lie if you have to”
@anyone
Not sure where to post this.
Has anyone had a problem dealing with SSA in Baltimore OIO?
I have found them to be totally disfunctional. They have me totally misclassified but they don’t reply to any appeal I send them.
@Deep
You say you worked for the government when you were 17. Were you still working there when you turned 18?
Does anyone know how long it is taking to get an appointment in Vancouver for relinquishment? They just sent an email back and said to be patient! No idea what that means.
Thanks.
BCBlue
Thanks for all the helpful information from this website.
Just a couple of pieces of information/advice for those seeking appointments to relinquish or renounce in Canada: If you receive a reply saying to try again as of a certain date, resend your request as early as possible on the first date specified. It is quite possible all appointments they are willing to make at that time will be taken in the first week as was the case in Toronto in October 2014. I sent mine right after midnight on a Saturday morning November 1. Although the “please re-send” response had indicated that the appointments given out in November would be for the period June-August, 2015, I was given an appointment for in early March. I assume I was lucky enough to pick up on a cancellation.
I am a dual national and having been naturalized and swore allegiance to a foreign power in 2003 does it matter that I have applied for in 2012, a new US passport and used it to travel to the US as regards relinquishment?
@duni — The first time I applied for a U.S. passport after taking Canadian citizenship, I was asked to sign a document confirming I did not intend to give up my U.S. citizenship when I took Canadian citizenship. Did you sign such a document in 2012?
@duni
Yes- it matters. Sorry to tell you.
Someone has just relinquished
They have notified the us consulate but an appointment is months away
They have an existing Usa passport good through the end of this year
They need to see Usa family next month
What do they do?
no I didn’t RLee
@Duni
If you applied for a US passport after becoming a citizen of another nation, that is saying “I want to be a dual”. You wont get any relinquishment with that.
@Polly, if the passport is only good to the end of the year he’s had it long before he did the relinquishing act.
@George, he should use it for travel if he has to. Although he’s informed the consulate, until they go through the paperwork and he gets final approval of the relinquishment from the State Dept as far as the US is concerned he’s still a US citizen.
@duni while i agree with Polly that is the probable interpretation, i have read at least one account on Brock where someone was allowed to relinquish after acquiring a US passport strictly for travel to the US after being intimidated at the border about having a US birthplace but not a us passport. The consulate in that case had recommended against approval but the state dept had allowed. It may depend on May differ in your situation