Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I might try the voluntary government job for a couple of days, there has to be some way to avoid the payment if I really insist on the relinquishment.
Are you talking about the election polling station job? Did you see my previous post? Somebody I know tried that in Canada, and the relinquishment claim was denied by the lawyers in Washington DC. You can try; I just want you to know that it has been tried and failed once that we know of.
The consul who does your interview in an embassy/consulate is, in the case of relinquishment, little more than a clerk. They take your information and enter it into the system along with their personal assessment of your honesty and intent, but the decision is made in Washinton DC. There are several cases where a local consul has recommended a claim be denied but Washington approved it, and vice versa.
If this were a quick process one might say there is no harm in trying, but it can take a year and a half to find out (counting the time waiting for an appointment). I personally am at the 1.75 year mark and still waiting.
In your case, the long wait may be OK since you have no tax obligations for now.
@Marek, you can insist all you like, but if Washington says no that’s it as far as relinquishing goes.
I agree with WhatAmI, it’s extremely unlikely that an election job is going to show your intent to give up your US citizenship. The only “advantage” if you want to call it that of trying that angle to get a relinquishment is as he said. It’ll take ages for you to get an answer from Washington and when they say no, you’ll then have to do the whole thing again to renounce. What’s the advantage – it’ll give you YEARS to save up the $2,350 (or by then even higher) fee.
The actual phrasing regarding employment is here:
“4.accepting employment with a foreign government after the age of 18 if (a) one has the nationality of that foreign state or (b) an oath or declaration of allegiance is required in accepting the position (Sec. 349 (a) (4) INA);”
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
And remember, the US’s default position on any expatriating act – apart from renunciation in front of the Consul – is no, you didn’t intend to lose your citizenship when you undertook the act. So it’s up to you to prove otherwise, in the form of employment contracts, any alligence oaths you might have sworn in connection with that employment, etc. I doubt a voluntary job for a couple of days is going to provide anything like that.
Oh, and if you think trying number 2 in the list might work – the answer to that is no as well. As you’re already a citizen of Poland any such oaths have no relevance as far as the US is concerned regarding relinquishing.
@Marek
Regarding banks in Poland – you may want to have a look at the online account applicaton procedure of a few banks of which you could potentially want to become a customer sometime in the future. I suspect you’ll find various questions regarding “US person”-hood. That’ll give you some indication of what you’re up against.
@MAREK, I personally believe that one must always look at the US Code section first, NOT any state department manuals. The actual law is contained at 8 US Code 1481;
“(4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or ”
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
Here is the Field Manual reference;
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120540.pdf
Let me state my personal belief for the record and that is in some countries, working as a Poll Worker would meet the criteria in 8 US Code to relinquish US Citizenship.
But having said that, you would need to completely document that you are doing same in order to relinquish US Citizenship.
Having said more on that, trying to document poll work as a relinquishing act years after the fact is going to be pushing water uphill.
Personally, I would want to get a more properly documented job with a foreign government and not simply a volunteer temp job with little records.
How would I want to relinquish as a Poll Worker moving forward?
1.) Find out everything in Polish Law to serve as one. Must you be an EU Citizen? Do you take ANY oaths?
2.) You would need to advise the Polish election people in writing that you are considered a US National by them and that you are relinquishing your US Citizenship as part of this.
3.) You would need to notify the US Embassy in Warsaw in writing of what you are going to do and why you are doing it. Do this by certified mailing………
4.) Swear affadavits before and after in front of a Judge and/or lawyer or notary.
5.) Quickly make an appointment with the Embassy after the fact or better yet make an appointment well in advance of the event but for an appointment date shortly after the relinquishing event.
The Law is very clear and that is serving in ANY Office or Post.
If an election worker is considered an office or post under the Polish Government or a subdivision of the Polish Government then you have qualified with that step.
But you will have to be very vocal with lots of records on your intention to relinquish.
The Law does not require any amount of time served in any position.
You will need to be able to explain all of this in writing and how it relates to the actual US Law.
But to use such a minor position from long ago as a relinquishing act, the problem is documenting the intention. IMO a person seeking to relinquish based on a minor action would quickly seek to document same with a CLN.
I am planning to advise the consulate that I relinquished in 2001 based on employment with a provincial government. I have heard different stories about this: some consular officials recommend that the request be denied, others are more flexible. According to posts here, it is worth insisting that the documentation be forwarded to DC as a relinquishment and see what happens. My question is: if the people in Washington deny the relinquishment, what is the next step? Can you then just make another appointment to renounce? Does a failed relinquishment attempt causes problems for a later renunciation?
@Nick
There usually has been some reason when the consular official recommended denial, such as if the person obtained or renewed a passport after taking the government employment or other actions indicating a continued position of retaining US citizenship. Occasionally the consul has just been plain wrong and uninformed of the laws. Another example is if you first claim some other relinquishing act that is in fact not valid (such as naturalization as a minor) and you then switch to Plan B and claim later government employment. This is met with “How can you say you took the government job with the intention of relinquishing US citizenship when you just told me you thought you lost it when you naturalized at 15 years old?”.
Have your story straight and sensible, and yes, if necessary stand your ground and insist it be submitted to Washington.
You can always renounce. A failed relinquishment cannot hinder that. Hard to say if they would put you at the front or back of the waiting list for another appointment.
How renouncing without a SSN will land you on the covered expat list, and the difficulties of obtaining one from abroad:
http://tax-expatriation.com/2015/05/09/u-s-citizens-overseas-who-wish-to-renounce-without-a-social-security-number-will-necessarily-be-a-covered-expatriate/
I am in the process of relinquishing based on working in a municipal library. I have worked in a library for 20 years however I have taken no oath. In order to strengthen my case I was going to point out that Canadian public libraries adopted the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act (FOIPPA) in response to the Patriot Act. Therefore arguing that: ” As a Canadian employee of a Canadian library, I have been unable to comply with the Patriot Act and any other American privacy acts because my allegiance is with Canada and has been since my employment.”
Is this a strong enough point or even valid?
@ Coffee,
(1) If you were a Canadian citizen at the time of accepting the employment, you fall under s. 349(a)(4)(A) and you do not need an oath (basically the oath of allegiance would be considered redundant because it would not change your relationship with the State — that is because as a citizen, one is deemed to already owe allegiance to the State).
They may ask if you took an oath in connection with the job. And if I had taken one, I would include it in my application in DS 4079(11)(c). But bottom line, it is not required in a relinquishment performed under s. 349(a)(4)(A).
(2) If you were not a Canadian citizen at the time of accepting the employment, then Section (4)(B), which requires an oath of allegiance, would apply. In that case, such oath would change your relationship with the State.
In general, when applying for a CLN I feel that you want to present as strong a case as possible and say as little as necessary at the same time.
In particular, I’d be cautious in writing about not being able to comply with US laws. I’m thinking if you ceased to be a US citizen the day you took the library employment, it would seem logical that you would not think about US laws at all on the job. Though I can see thinking about the possible conflict of laws before taking the job, when considering taking the employment, leading to a decision to relinquish US citizenship upon taking employment so as to avoid such conflict.
Posted this on another thread, but realized it probably belongs here:
I had my consulate appointment last week to relinquish my US citizenship (in Germany). Now it is a waiting game to see when my CLN will arrive. The vice-consul had no idea how long it will take as I am one of the first people to ever relinquish at the consulate and they have no experience with it. He said for renouncers it normally takes about 8 weeks. Out of interest sake, does anyone know what the DoS actually looks at. Do they decide on the relinquishment based only on the materials that the consulate send them or do they look into other records (driving license records, court jury, employment etc.)?
I am frustrated with the lengthy wait in Toronto to renounce– 9 months! Is there a requirement to renounce US citizenship in the country in which you reside? Is the wait less at other consulates/ embassies?
@Linda, no it’s not a requirement that you renounce in the country you live in. If you want/can afford to travel elsewhere you may find the waiting time is less. Check with other embassies to see what their wait times for an appointment is. Or even check the other consulates/embassies in Canada itself, I’m not sure if they’re all the same waiting period at the moment or not.
@Linda
There was someone who traveled to Mexico just before the price for renouncing went up. He figured it was worth it because he could renounce for 450$ before the deadline when it changed to 2350$. Basically he used that “extra” money for his flight and a little holiday.
@Linda
I believe Krackerjack got an appointment in Tijuana Mexico in a matter of a week or so.
If you fancy a vacation/renunciation in Europe, then Luxembourg was a matter of a couple of weeks.
But email them first as some consulates are now only accepting persons resident in that country
Good Morning Linda,
I wanted to inform you of the option you have to renounce outside of your country of residence. I did such a thing about 8 months ago at the time when they announced that they fees were going from 450 to 2350. So I decided to see if I could renounce at other consulates outside of Canada where I live. I contacted a bunch of them and ended up going to Tijuana to do my renunciation. One word of caution though would be that you need to check with the consulate from whatever country you end up going to, to make sure that they will allow it. I encountered a couple that would not let me renounce. Barbados was one of them. But the consulates in Hermacillo, Tijuana and Nassau were all very accommodating.
For more information on my travel you can check out this article here written by Patrick Cain with Global News.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1671945/meet-the-alberta-man-who-went-to-tijuana-to-renounce-his-u-s-citizenship/
Moderators, if Linda is interested you can pass along my email to her and I would be willing to chat with her in a private conversation outside of the board here. If not that is fine as well.
Cheers,
Rocky
PS LINDA.
You should also check if the consulate abroad will let you renounce in one appointment, or failing that, the second appointment can be had within the time span of your vacation!
Thanks for weighing in, Rocky. I’ll send Linda your contact information.
I am hoping someone can answer some questions I have about a relinquishment situation.
I was born in California.
I naturalized in 1973 in Canada as a 14 year old. I was told that if I failed to establish residency in the United States by the age of 25 years old then my US citizenship would automatically be relinquished.
I never returned to live in the United States. I never held a US passport. I have travelled only a few times to the Unites States in my life. I was under the impression that I relinquished my US citizenship by failing to establish residency by the age of 25. I can not find the statute that says this, I believe it has been changed.
I would like to obtain a CLN from the consulate and have my relinquishment processed. What evidence do I need to show to prove that I relinquished? I am worried about the tax consequences if they deny that I relinquished and I am forced to renounce.
@Deep,
Sorry, but no. You’re referring to INA 350, which was repealed in Oct 1978. You would have to have turned 25 before that date.
Your naturalization as a minor doesn’t count as a relinquushing act either because you weren’t over 18. People have tried but were denied.
Your only remaining relinquishment options are government employment or military service, and these would have to have occured before (June?) 2004 to get you off the hook for tax filing obligations. If you’ve started either more recently it would save you the $2350 renunciation fee.
@Linda
There is NO requirement that you renounce at your local Embassy/Consulate.
There is NO requirement that you renounce at an Embassy/Consulate in the country where you reside.
Renunciation can be at any US Embassy/Consulate outside the US. There have been reports from other Brockers of “Renunciation Tourism” where, rather than wait months and months locally, they have been willing to take a trip somewhere and have arranged a renunciation at the consulate where they are visiting.
I guess one would have to check the website for that Embassy/consulate and email them to get specific details on wait-times. Ever wanted to visit Iceland? Mexico? Jamaica? If this might suit you, check it out and let us all know. If you want to stay in Canada, check all locations for wait-times but maybe a trip will serve your purpose (not to Cuba – – guess they don’t have an Embassy yet LOL)
@Deep,
Did you receive a citizenship card or certificate from Canada when you naturalized? If not, you could apply for one now, and use that to try to relinquish now, avoiding the tax/reporting headache.
There was a post within the last few days where someone was successful using that as a relinquishing act. IIRC, it was someone born dual, which has generally meant no relinquishment allowed, but Washington accepted it.
Deep. Or you could do what BC Doc did. Her relinquishing act was denied. She decided to tell them to (expletive deleted),
She resolved to tell all and sundry that she was only Canadian and that she was born in Montreal. If you feel you cannot tell a fib, the IGA has a provision that a financial institution is supposed to accept a reasonable explanation why you don’t have a CLN. Your explanation is certainly reasonable. Another Brocker (also a Doc) – Silver Birch if memory serves me-went though that process with MDManagement- a financial institution. It took a lot of persistence on his part but his argument was accepted
Deep
You may have a case for something but more detail is needed
Did you apply for your naturalisation or did your parents. You need to request your archived file. Did you take an oath then
By chance do you remember voting when you were eighteen and was there an election ghat year when you could have voted
You literally must cut and paste eight us code as yo what it said when you did things
Deep, You probably don’t need to do a thing. You certainly don’t have any tax consequences.