Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Marek
Is FATCA having much of an impact on banking in Poland? Are you able to obtain a bank account using a document that doesn’t reveal your place of birth? if you can bank easily without disclosing place of birth, consider doing nothing. $2350 USD is a lot of coin and filing five years of returns is a huge PITA. Take your time if you can — it doesn’t sound like you need to rush into things. Good luck.
BC Doc
Marek. If you were to renounce, you are supposed to then certify that you had been ‘tax compliant’ for the previous 5 years. If your income was below the threshold for filing in each of those years, you would have no obligation to file anything and could certify compliance. In a case such as yours, the chances of them doing anything to you are slim indeed. Travel to the U.S. is not dependant on filing tax returns.
Thank you, which forms exactly should I file? There are so many of them and there are additional forms to some forms as well… I guess I will just literally fill them with zeros in all possible places since my income has been nearly zero throughout the years, only when I get the job in the near months to save for the renounciation fee I would have to bother with actual numbers…That’s theory maybe I am missing something…
Also i would like to know what happens if I don’t file anything? And if there is another possibility besides working for the government to escape that fee? Maybe some public recorded statement of my loyalty to Poland? I remember reading of something like that in the past.
Or how do I certify I am tax compliant to them?
Sorry for the triple comment, as for the banks I honestly have no idea. I have one bank account with currently less than 100 dollars in it. And had it for about 10 years never exceeding 1000 dollars total. That being money from my parents and relatives for my living expenses… Never had any problem with the bank itself. However I plan to get self employed in the future and also someday invest in mutual funds and then problems might arise. I heard of one man being rejected from investing in such funds in my country because he was an american ciizen.
Hi Marek
Sounds like you would fit well into streamlined for now and don`t have much to worry about seeing that your bank accounts dont hold much. But have you ever thought of moving back to America once you are done studying? Looking for a job there? In that case – you might not want to give up your US citizenship.
Maybe if you were in the Polish military, but that’s all. Otherwise you have to renounce and pay the fee to do so.
Tax-wise, and I’m not really up on this, if your income is below filing requirements then I think all you’d need to do is file an 8854 form once you’ve renounced. Base figure for a single person is $10,500 gross a year to file a US return.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html
Consequences of not filing. Well, even though you wouldn’t meet the financial figures, the fact that you hadn’t filed an 8854 form to close out your tax obligations means you would automatically become what’s called a “covered expatriate”. Now this may not cause you problems in the immediate future, but it could incur a $10,000 penalty for not filing the form. If, in future, you make a trip to the States you could risk a) being held at the airport until the fine is paid off or b) being barred from ever entering the States again. This is a remote possibility at the moment, but the IRS and border control both have details of CLN’s (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) sent to them by the State Department so they can co-ordinate on whether or not taxes have been paid as required and check on people entering the country who might owe tax. I think this may become a more common occurrence in the future so you have to decide if it’s a risk you want to take or not to file the 8854.
When I renounced I didn’t have any income to report either as I don’t work. My tax preparer added a note to say that “I wasn’t filing returns because I had no income to report.” You could do the same with the 8854 form I think. So you would fill in the previous 5 year figures with zeros and then it would only be a matter of declaring what little you have in your bank account and any other stuff like house ownership.
The 8854 form is here so study it to see how you would need to fill it in.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
This form cannot be filed until you have renounced so that’s your main priority as long as you have no income worth filing. Once you can afford to renounce make the appointment and get it done asap. You may be lucky and there won’t be much delay in getting an appointment in Poland. Once that’s done you’ll have to wait until June of the year following your renunciation to file as the appropriate 8854 form won’t be issued until then.
You will need your SSN so do make a serious effort to find it.
Federal register of expatriations now published for the 1 st quarter 2015. It contains 16 pages.
Anyone counted yet?
Thank you very much for the answers.
I don’t plan on living in the US. My life center is and always will be Poland. I know this is quite unusual for the polish guy my age, since most of the young folks here emigrate, but I made a decision long time ago and won’t change my mind.
I might try one more thing however to try not to pay the fee. I worked as a chairman of an election commitee during our presidential election 5 years ago for two days. Could it possibly count as working for the government? I could also try and apply for the same job in our parliamentary election next year.
@Heidi
Could you post a link please? The latest list I see is from Feb. 11, 2015 and pertains to Q4 2014.
@Medea Fleecestealer
Since he was born dual, he can’t become a covered expatriate.
@notamused, sorry, but you’re wrong. Unless he files 8854 it makes no difference if he was born dual.
“Exception for dual-citizens and certain minors.
Dual-citizens and certain minors (defined next) will not be treated as covered expatriates (and therefore will not be subject to the expatriation tax) solely because one or both of the statements in paragraph (1) or (2) above (under Who Must File) applies. However, these individuals will still be treated as covered expatriates unless they file Form 8854 and certify that they have complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of expatriation as required in paragraph (3) above (under Who Must File).”
@Marek, no that wouldn’t count as working for the government, sorry. You need an job where you swear alligence to Poland as part of your employment. Nor would 2 days only count as long enough I don’t think.
@Notamused
Sorry, it was last quarter of 2014. Allou had said it was out and she was not on it after 2 yes. I checked but we must have both misread the date.
Marek can become a covered expat as a dual if he doesn’t attest to filing 5 yrs of tax returns and 6 yrs of fbars (if he has over 10,000 in bank accounts.)
@Medea.
Does anyone know how long one Has to be employed in a gov job? It may be worth checking with the embassy.
@heidi
OK, thanks on both points. For me it’s going on 3 years and haven’t been on the list.
@Marek; I will try to make this easier for you as you are getting too many small bits of information.
1.) Have you ever earned more than $10,000 TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS in Euro equivalent in a calender year? If you never exceeded that limit, you DID NOT have to file any income tax forms with the US Government.
2.) Have you ever had more than $10,000 TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS in Euro equivalent with a bank or other financial firm? If you never did, then you had no filing requirements with the US Government.
My guess is that you answered the above and you are in complete compliance with your US Citizenship.
Your idea of relinquishment is likely NOT employment with a foreign government. However, ANY job with the Polish Government or a political subdivision does qualify for a relinquishment and you DO NOT need to take an Oath to Poland to qualify!!
If you accept bona-fide employment with any part of the Government even for one day and can document that employment, then as long as it was your intent to relinquish, you have lost your US Citizenship.
IF your income and assets were below the above limits you do NOT need to enter streamlined!!
Should you renounce your US Citizenship for a fee or relinquish because you accept any Government Job, then you fill out the one form and certify you complied with your filing obligations which was that you had no filing obligation.
Personally if I was you, I would NOT renounce or relinquish until I needed to. Right now, you have no need to do either.
In the future when your income or assets exceed ten thousand dollars, start filing the forms to the best of your ability as its easier to begin in compliance than to get back into compliance.
You are likely already a fully compliant person whose obligation was to do nothing. You can afford to wait things out as FATCA might go away in a future EU Court hearing or you may want to move to the US in ten years.
@heidi, I don’t think anyone could say for sure. It depends so much on whether the relevant embassy/consulate will even take the employment as evidence of your intention to relinquish to start with. As we know several haven’t and those people have had to insist their files are sent on to Washington for a final decision.
6 years of FBAR’s are not required for the 8854 form. That’s only if you go with the Streamlined program which requires 3 years of back dated filing and 6 years of back dated FBAR’s. But Marek doesn’t have enough in his account/s to need to file them anyway. He doesn’t need Streamlined either as he has no income to speak of. I only used it because I did have FBAR’s that needed to be filed to bring me into compliance before I could file the 8854.
@Marek, sorry I posted the instructions for the 8854 – which are worth reading anyway – but the actual form is shown here:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8854.pdf
Marek. You are getting conflicting advice. Medea and George come closest . You could do nothing. The risk there is that at some time in the future you could possibly have trouble opening a new financial account. We don’t know the state of affairs in Poland.
You do not need streamlined as you had no obligation to file. When you start to earn more than the threshold amount , you could start filing then in anticipation of renouncing later on. This is known as ‘going forward’ and is perfectly suitable for those with no previous obligation.
Finally, you could renounce as soon as possible. You would have only 1 form to file afterward. Form 8854 on which you certify that you had been tax compliant for the previous 5 years. ( because you had no obligation)
Federal Register update -sorry, I seem to have checked last years May listing. So perhaps I will appear on the yet to be published May 2015 list. However I can add that one person renouncing after me, and sending their forms in at the same time was listed last year.
I spoke with a non-Brocker who tried to claim past relinquishment based on working for a Canadian crown corporation for a few years as a contractor, and twice working for 2 days at election polling stations.
During the interview, the consul said he didn’t think either would count, but sent the case to Washington DC anyway. Washington DENIED the CLN.
Believe me, if the Q1 2015 Name and Shame list was out, Eric and a few others would be all over it. It’s late, as per usual.
“I spoke with a non-Brocker who tried to claim past relinquishment based on working for a Canadian crown corporation for a few years as a contractor, and twice working for 2 days at election polling stations.
During the interview, the consul said he didn’t think either would count, but sent the case to Washington DC anyway. Washington DENIED the CLN.”
Hmmm. Very interesting. In effect that person performed several potentially expatriating acts, intended to lose their US citizenship, yet was forced against their will to remain a US citizen. They probably just wanted to collect the $2350. In my mind that makes “self-relinquishment” even more attractive. I.e., don’t ask them; tell them and don’t give them an opportunity to say no.
Just the other day as I logged in to my bank account I was asked to first “update my personal information”. Sure enough, there were the usual annoying questions about US citizenship, US taxable status, blah, blah, blah. As a self-relinquisher I was able to truthfully answer no to all the probing questions. Problem solved and that was the end of that. During the process I was able to determine that there wasn’t any telltale US indicia included in my personal data. This was actually much better than initiating a review myself.
Now that I am freshly “updated” the bank has absolutely no reason to suspect that I might be an undiscovered US customer and it should be clear sailing going forward.
“Just the other day as I logged in to my bank account I was asked to first “update my personal information”. Sure enough, there were the usual annoying questions about US citizenship, US taxable status, blah, blah, blah.”
That’s interesting too. If you are able, please share what bank this was, or at least if it’s an “investment” type bank (RBC Direct, TD Waterhouse, etc) as opposed to a regular personal bank or credit union. Investment houses are reportedly stickter about collecting info, CLNs, W8BENs, W9s, etc.
For this reason I never answer the phone when one of my banks phones, and I don’t go in person to a teller unless I absolutely have to.
@Marek
You said you’d like to visit the U.S. two or three times for travel and that at this point you’re low income. My concern for you with formally renouncing, then travelling while low income is that U.S. CBP might refuse you entry as a tourist because of low income. They might refuse to allow you to enter the U.S. because of perception on their part that you’re likely to overstay your tourist visa for economic reasons (ie, claim your coming to work illegally). Food for thought, anyways. At the present, CBP can’t refuse you the right to return to your place of birth.
Thank you once again, I guess I will have to contact US embassy in Warsaw or US consulate in Krakow to know for sure if they will let me lose the citizenship for free. I don’t know which one will be more appropriate, the consulate site tells me that renunciations are only handled by Warsaw, but if i was to relinquish, I think either one should have to process it further to the Washington.
Otherwise i might just wait and see how will the things turn out. But honestly i would prefer to lose that burden sooner than later. You never know what the US government will think of next (for example renunciation fee going even further up…)
Marek,
How could you relinquish? From what you’ve posted, your only possibility is government employment or military service.