Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Good luck and congratulations on reaching a decision best for you and your family. Won’t hurt to mention your preference for timing of your appointment. You never can tell when there might be a cancellation — or someone who understands that you will have to travel a ways for the appointment. Worth a try!
@ WhatAmi
And to add to the underscore/hyphen confusion one of my husband’s ACS e-mails stated within: “… please e-mail Calgary_ACS@state.gov to request an appointment”. Note they (ACS person) used an underscore. Anyway HYPHEN is the way to go.
@ calgary411
You are right on about phoning — useless!
@ Heidi – RE “I am surprised that US SS payments are deducted from the Canadian ones, this is not the case in Switzerland or the UK.”
Whoooooooa, did I miss something? I live in Canada and receive US SS payments; I’ve not been made aware that any of my CPP is deducted due to my receiving US SS (which only amounts to almost enough for a dinner out each month).
Can you, Heidi, or Heartsick or Dave provide more details/references please!!!!!!
@ Peacheykeen: in case no one has mentioned it yet, just remember that your kids, too, may have to consider keeping or renouncing citizenship when they get closer to 18.
@ LM I did not mean to panic anyone. I just know of someone who has some sort of deduction regarding their Pensions. I don’t have more details. Maybe it is an unusual case, I will pass on the info that WhatAmI gave me to them. WhatAmI assured me that his mother does not have any deductions from her CPP.
Thanks, LM, but my kids have blessedly escaped the ball and chain of US citizenship. I was born in Canada to US parents and lived almost my entire life in Canada, so I don’t meet the requirements for passing the curse on to my children. Thank God! This whole experience has nearly cost me my sanity. I’m not completely in the clear yet, but renouncing the citizenship will be a huge step closer to peace (I hope).
People are probably confusing CPP and OAP . CPP is not reduced by anything else. It is solely dependent on how much you paid in over the years. OAS on the other hand is means tested. If your other income is high enough, some or all of it is ‘clawed back’. I.E. Reduced.
Dave It is never that easy.
There are no benefits to retaining US citizenship.
He could do nothing, renounce and do nothing more or renounce and try to fulfil filing obligations. All have pros and cons.
@ heartsick
Maybe it had something to do with the clawbacks on OAS (also on the age amount tax credit) which occur at pretty high income thresholds.
http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/services/pensions/oas/pension/recovery-tax.shtml
http://www.taxplanningguide.ca/tax-planning-guide/section-2-individuals/old-age-security-oas-clawback/
http://www.taxtips.ca/filing/ageamount.htm
http://www.canadianexpatnetwork.com/public/787.cfm?sd=60 may offer some further clarification on how it all works (though refers to 2011).
Hmmm, …because the US SS administration will “penalize” you because of CPP.
Why should we not be surprised?
@ Calgary 411 Thank you this is probably what it is. I spoke to the person and it was confirmed that there was a deduction but it was not the whole SS payment that was deducted. The person did not understand the reasoning for it but felt it wasn’t worth arguing about.
Some may recall that they confiscated my liquid lipstick at the Vancouver consulate! No phones, no laptops. I bet they wouldn’t let you take a new iwatch in!
@Peacheykeen, if you’re were born in Canada did your parents even register your birth abroad at an American embassy/consulate? Even if they did, you are not yet in the US tax system so is it really going to be worth the hassle of getting a SSN to start filing to clear your obligations? No one in Canada except you and your family know that you have an American connection. You could simply forget about that connection entirely. You have no problems crossing the border because a US birthplace won’t show up on their records and should your bank ask you can quite rightly prove that you have Canadian passport and nothing else. Should they ask if you have any American connection simply say no, because you don’t really.
If you renounce then a copy of the CLN will be sent to the IRS and you could be fined $10,000 for non-filing of the 8854 and there may be fines for non-filing of other returns too. At some time in the future this could flag up on the border control’s system and you could be held until you pay up or be barred from entering the States. If you simply forget the American connection none of this will be possible because there’s no CLN on record.
I simply point this out as an option for you. It’s ultimately your decision whether you tackle the tax side of expatriation or not given your circumstances. As is so often said here, research, reseach and more research before making any decisions. Only when you’re happy and comfortable with the choices you’ve decided on should you go ahead with them.
Medea,
Peacheykeen initially said:
Ah, quite right calgary411. I forgot that she’s already filed in preparation.
I am have been working on the DS-4079 form to request an appointment. I feel that i need to get this done soon if i hope to get an appointment during 2015.
I have prepared my own US and CDN returns for over 30 years, but now realize i am out of my depth in dealing with various mutual funds and the forms now required (i may need a lot of them!).
I have contacted a tax preparer that sound like they will be suitable but there has been a long delay to get an appointment.
I guess they are all overworked this year.
I would feel better having an evaluation about where i stand tax wise prior to requesting the appointment.
Does any processing begin when the 4079 is filed?
Should i worry about this – for example if the tax situation becomes more complex, could i cancel/delay the appointment?
Mostly, 4079 has nothing to do with taxes. The State department ( consulate) doesn’t contact IRS until after you renounce and then only to inform them you have renounced.
Get an appointment first. Then work on 4079. If you get an appointment in 2015, you would only need to file tax returns for 2014 and part of 2015. If you’vee done it for 30 yrs., 2 more shouldn’t be that much different.
The Duke has got it right. If you are lucky and are able to get an appointment to renounce in 2015, your final tax filings won’t be due until June 15, 2016. There will be plenty of time to work on the tax end of things. Job one is getting rid of that US citizenship.
@ Mostly Canadian,
You may be faced with a long delay in booking a consulate appointment. (Eg, Toronto is now booking for February 2016, and Ottawa won’t even make bookings right now – they’re telling people to re-send their booking requests in September).
So, I’d suggest book now. You can always cancel and re-book, if necessary.
The consulate won’t care if you’re up to date on your taxes or not. Not their department. Dept of States’s only involvement/connection with tax is the following:
(1) At the consulate the person signs DS-4081, Statement of Understanding of Consequences; one of the 12 items on it is Item 10, that renouncing “… may not exempt me from US tax income taxation [etc] …”
(2) Dept of State is to provide IRS with a copy of each CLN they issue as per DoS Interagency Coordination and Reporting Requirements, 7 FAM 1243(a).
(3) The questionnaire, DS-4079, at q. 13 (e) asks “Do you file US income or other tax returns?” [DS-4079 is used to determine if a relinquishment actually occurred when the person claims it did. DoS does not require the 4079 for renunciation, but allows consulates to use it for renunciation files as well, if they wish. So, some consulates use the 4079 for renunciations and some don’t.] The tax question on the DS-4079 is there as an indicator of your ties and connections to the US, which is important if you’re claiming to have relinquished some time ago, but it has no relevance either way to a renunciation.
It is definitely a good idea to have an idea of what your tax situation is/will be and any possible ramifications before going ahead and renouncing. But as Duke and Maz have pointed out, you have plenty of time after the renunciation to actually finalise your tax filings. A December renunciant has approx 5-1/2 months to complete filing. A January renunciant has approx 17-1/2 months to complete filing.
Okay. You’ve all been so helpful that I just must ask another question. I currently work for the federal government. I believe I made an oath/affirmation when I started the job years ago although I haven’t been able to locate it. I had no intention of renouncing my citizenship at the time. However, do you think there is the remotest possibility that I could make a new oath, this time FULLY INTENDING to pledge my allegiance to Canada and relinquish my US citizenship? I’d dearly love to save my $2350. I’m pretty sure my Human Resources people would help me out with making a new oath.
@Peacheykeen,
No. Since you were already a Canadian citizen, oaths to Canada are completely meaningless with respect to US citizenship. Then and now. The only possibility would have been if you gave it some thought since your post above and now clearly remember that you _did_ intend to relinquish US citizenship when you took the government job years ago. I say “would have been” because you can’t claim that now since you’ve been filing US taxes all along, indicating your intent to retain USC. The only thing you could do to save the $2350 would be to join the military (with the intention of relinquishing). Or, maybe take on a new job with some level of Canadian government (including municipal) with the intention.
Aw, shucks.
Federal Register Name list published May 2, 2015 – Just for the record – I renounced close to 2 years ago and sent in all the final forms including 8854 and my name has yet to appear. A couple of other people who renounced after me have already appeared, and since the 8854s were sent in together in one very big package, it cannot be that Treasury did not receive the forms…
Hello,
I was born in the USA to my polish parents and went back to Poland – my home country at the age of 3 months. I am 24 right now.
My whole life I’ve been thinking that you have to apply for a passport to get the actual citizenship and also that the US citizenship will benefit me in some way in the future. The truth came out to be quite different when I read about the tax laws, fatca etc..
I have never been to the US after being born there, never had a passport, however i do have a SSN number somewhere, I can’t find it right now.
I would like to lose my US citizenship and still be able to go to US territory in the future for 2 or 3 short touristic trips.
What would be the best way to go? It’s very difficult to get government job in my country, in fact gettting any job here is difficult… I currently have no money to pay them for renounciation, I actually never had any money on my own because I’ve been studying hard for the past 5 years.
Do I have to file any tax returns then when I lose the citizenship? What could be the consequences if i don’t file the returns and go on a short trip to the US?
Welcome Marek!
If your income is low (and not complicated by any “difficult” investments like mutual funds) and possibly your bank accounts don’t surpass $10,000 USA (triggering the FBAR/FinCENll4) then filing the past 5 years of taxes should not be too difficult. You were born dual so no exit tax to worry about. Basically you will have to save up for that exorbitant renunciation fee (now $2350 USA), get a renunciation appointment as soon as possible and then you have until next year to file the final forms (5 years taxes and 8854). I so wish it wasn’t such an expensive process but from what you wrote it sounds like the part which is often the most difficult for some people (the 5 years tax filings) may not be too bad for you. Good luck … ask more questions if you need and someone here will try to help as best they can. One more thing … try very hard to find your SS number because you’ll need it for the tax forms.